In this episode of the M365.fm podcast, Carina de Vries shares practical strategies for making AI adoption successful inside organizations and turning Microsoft Copilot into a tool employees actually use every day. Drawing from her own personal journey with AI and years of experience in user adoption, she explains why most AI rollouts fail: companies focus too much on the technology and not enough on the real problems employees are trying to solve.

The conversation explores how organizations can move from experimentation to measurable productivity within 90 days by focusing on small, repeatable habits instead of overwhelming users with one-time training sessions. Carina highlights the importance of trust, confidence, and behavior change, explaining that successful AI adoption starts with understanding user needs, daily workflows, and business outcomes before introducing tools like Microsoft Copilot or ChatGPT.

The episode also dives into the challenges companies face when employees prefer ChatGPT over Copilot, and why forcing a platform decision rarely works. Instead, Carina recommends a problem-first approach that connects AI directly to practical use cases such as writing, summarizing meetings, improving quality, and saving time.

Listeners will learn how to design scalable AI adoption programs, reduce AI anxiety among employees, improve digital literacy, and create long-term engagement with Copilot. The discussion also covers change management, AI habits, productivity gains, and why organizations should treat AI as part of daily work rather than a standalone innovation project.

A valuable episode for IT leaders, adoption specialists, and organizations looking to scale Microsoft Copilot adoption successfully.

You probably notice how fast ai is changing the workplace. Many teams feel overwhelmed and worry about keeping up. In fact,

79% of organizations say they face challenges with ai adoption
Many struggle to reach happy users and real business challenges remain

You want user-tested ai solutions that actually stick. Workspace Heroes brings you ai solutions that focus on meaningful integration, transparency, and ai skilling. With the AI Adoption Framework, you get a business-relevant opportunity for growth and tangible outcomes. This approach centers on behavior, not just tech, and helps your team become happy users.

Key Takeaways

Start with a strong foundation for AI adoption. Build trust and set clear goals to guide your team.
Assess your organization's readiness for AI. Identify strengths and gaps to tailor your approach effectively.
Communicate your AI vision clearly. Use real scenarios to show how AI benefits users and the organization.
Create accountability by appointing AI champions. They can support others and keep enthusiasm high.
Focus on user-centric training. Tailor learning to specific roles to help users see AI's relevance in their daily tasks.
Encourage daily interactions with AI. Small, consistent use builds comfort and confidence over time.
Implement continuous support systems. Help desks and peer sharing keep users engaged and informed.
Use pilot initiatives to test AI applications. Choose relevant use cases to demonstrate value and gather feedback.

Laying the Foundation for AI Adoption

Getting started with ai adoption means you need a strong foundation. Workspace Heroes helps you set up the right guardrails so your team feels ready and confident. You want to build trust from day one. The AI Adoption Framework gives you a clear ai adoption map, so you know exactly where you’re headed.

Assess Readiness

Before you jump in, you need to know where your organization stands. This is where the ai adoption map comes in handy. You can spot gaps and strengths early.

Stakeholder Mapping

Think about who will use ai every day. Map out your key players. You want to include leaders, managers, and frontline users. When you involve everyone, you build trust and make ai adoption smoother.

AI Maturity Audit

Next, check your current ai maturity. Ask yourself: Are your teams familiar with ai tools? Do they trust new technology? The ai adoption map helps you see if you need more training or support. Here are some common readiness factors to watch for:

Resistance to change and skepticism. People might worry that ai will replace their jobs or make things harder. You need to build trust by talking openly.
Poor user experience and complexity. If ai tools feel confusing, users will avoid them. Focus on simple, helpful tools.
Inadequate communication and awareness. Keep everyone in the loop about your ai adoption plans.
Inflexible 'toolkit' approach. One size does not fit all. Tailor your ai adoption map for each team.

Communicate AI Vision

You want your team to see the big picture. Clear communication builds trust and excitement for ai adoption.

Clear Goals

Share your goals for ai adoption. Let people know how ai will help them, not just the company. Use real scenarios instead of just listing features. Here’s a quick look at best practices for sharing your ai vision:

Best Practice	Actionable Steps
Scenario-Based Messaging	Show how ai solves real problems in daily work.
Quick Wins	Highlight easy tasks ai can do right away.
Empower Managers	Give managers talking points and answers for common questions.
What You Can Do Today	Send a launch message with simple ai tasks to try.
Reinforcement	Share success stories and numbers to keep up the momentum.

Address Concerns

Listen to your team’s worries. Some may fear change or not trust ai yet. You can build trust by answering questions and showing how ai adoption will make work easier.

Build Accountability

You want everyone to feel responsible for ai adoption. This builds trust and keeps your ai adoption map on track.

Appoint AI Champions

Pick a few team members to become ai champions. They will help others, answer questions, and share tips. This creates trust and keeps the energy high.

Feedback Loops

Set up ways for users to share feedback. You can use surveys, chats, or quick check-ins. When you listen and act on feedback, you show that you value your team’s voice. This keeps trust strong and helps your ai adoption map succeed.

Tip: Start small, celebrate wins, and keep your ai adoption map flexible. Trust grows when people see real progress.

Creating Happy Users with AI

You want your team to feel confident and excited about using ai every day. The secret to happy users is simple: focus on their needs, help them build good habits, and give them support when they need it. Let’s break down how you can make this happen.

User-Centric Training

You can’t expect happy users if you throw everyone into the deep end. Start with user-centric training that meets people where they are.

Role-Based Learning

Not everyone uses ai the same way. When you tailor training to each role, you help people see how ai fits into their daily work. For example, sales teams might use ai to track leads, while HR teams use it to screen resumes. This approach leads to better outcomes for everyone.

Here’s what happens when you use role-based learning in your training:

Outcome	Improvement Percentage
Improvement in results	30%
Increase in time-to-productivity	50-70%
Reduction in errors	30%
Decrease in support tickets	25%
ROI within the first year	3.4x

You can see how these outcomes make a real difference. When people get training that matches their job, they become happy users faster.

Hands-On Workshops

People learn best by doing. Set up hands-on workshops where your team can try out ai tools in real scenarios. Let them ask questions, make mistakes, and learn together. This builds confidence and helps everyone see quick wins.

Here’s a quick checklist for user-centric training that leads to happy users:

Prioritize user-centric design so ai tools feel easy to use.
Offer onboarding tutorials that walk users through features.
Communicate benefits and instructions using different channels.
Balance ai automation with human support.
Gather feedback and use it to improve the experience.

Habit Formation

Happy users don’t just appear overnight. You need to help your team build habits that stick.

Daily AI Interactions

Encourage your team to use ai every day, even for small tasks. The more they interact with ai, the more comfortable they become. Research shows that daily use, especially with reminders and rewards, helps people remember what they learn and reduces stress.

Check out these findings:

Study/Research	Findings	Source
Piotr Woźniak's Research	AI-powered spaced repetition algorithms led to a 50% improvement in long-term retention compared to traditional methods.	source
Stanford University Study	Students using AI-based platforms like Knewton improved memory retention by 30% in just one month compared to standard methods.	source
Gamification Study	85% of participants felt more engaged, and gamified courses improved retention rates by up to 60%.	source

You can use ai-powered reminders, gamification, and personalized challenges to keep your team engaged and motivated.

Supportive Culture

Building a supportive culture is key for happy users. Celebrate small wins, share success stories, and encourage people to help each other. When your team feels safe to try new things, they’re more likely to stick with ai and reach better outcomes.

Tip: Start a “win wall” where people post their favorite ai moments. This keeps the energy high and shows everyone that progress matters.

Continuous Support

Even the best training and habits need backup. Continuous support keeps happy users on track and helps you reach your outcomes.

Help Desks

Set up a help desk where users can get answers fast. Tools like Intercom and Zendesk offer live chat, AI-powered chatbots, and ticketing systems. These features make it easy for your team to solve problems and keep moving forward.

Tool	Key Features
Intercom	Live chat, omnichannel inbox, AI-powered chatbot, user segmentation
Zendesk	Omnichannel ticketing system, AI knowledge base, customer interaction insights

Peer Sharing

Encourage your team to share tips and tricks with each other. Peer learning helps everyone grow and keeps happy users engaged. You can set up chat groups, lunch-and-learns, or even a “question of the week” to spark conversations.

Promote knowledge sharing among colleagues.
Schedule follow-up sessions for ongoing learning.
Create user-friendly documentation for self-learning.

When you combine user-centric training, habit formation, and continuous support, you create a team of happy users who love using ai. This leads to better outcomes, higher satisfaction, and a workplace where everyone wins.

Pilot Initiatives for AI Success

You want your ai adoption to move from theory to real results. Pilot initiatives give you a safe space for exploration, learning, and quick wins. You can test ideas, build confidence, and set the stage for bigger success. Let’s break down how you can make your ai pilots shine.

Select Use Cases

Choosing the right use cases is the first step. You want to focus on projects that matter to your business and your people.

Business Alignment

Pick use cases that match your company’s goals. Look for areas where ai can boost productivity, cut costs, or improve customer experience. You want your pilot to show clear value. Here’s a table to help you check if a use case is a good fit:

Criteria	Description
Alignment with Strategic Goals	Projects should support business objectives like cost reduction and customer experience.
Feasibility and Resource Availability	Assess technical expertise and infrastructure availability.
Data Readiness	Ensure sufficient, clean, and accessible data for AI training.
Scalability Potential	Evaluate if pilot success can be expanded to broader applications.
Stakeholder Buy-In	Leadership support and end-user engagement are crucial for adoption.
Risk Management	Identify technical, operational, ethical, and legal risks.
User Impact	Look for tangible benefits in productivity and decision-making.
Cross-Functional Collaboration	Involve diverse teams from IT, business units, and domain experts.

User Involvement

Get your users involved early. Ask them what slows them down and where they see opportunities for ai. When you include users in ai problem framing, you get better ideas and more buy-in. You also spot challenges before they become roadblocks.

AI Innovation Labs

Now it’s time for hands-on exploration. AI innovation labs give your team a playground for creativity and learning. You can try new tools, test ideas, and build skills together.

Exploration Sprints

Run short, focused exploration sprints. Set a clear goal, gather your team, and dive into ai problem framing. You might explore how ai can automate reports or improve customer support. These sprints keep energy high and let you learn fast.

Collaborative Labs

Bring people from different teams together in your ai innovation labs. Mix IT, business, and domain experts. This cross-functional exploration sparks new ideas and helps you see problems from every angle. You create a culture of innovation and teamwork.

Tip: Celebrate small wins in your ai innovation labs. Share stories of exploration and success to keep momentum strong.

Measure Success

You need to know if your pilot is working. Use clear metrics to track progress and guide your next steps.

Adoption Metrics

Track how many people use the ai tools and how often. Look at usage rates, feedback scores, and time saved. These numbers show if your ai adoption is on the right path.

User Feedback

Ask users what works and what doesn’t. Use surveys, interviews, or quick polls. Listen for ideas about new opportunities or ways to improve. User feedback helps you adjust your approach and unlock more success.

Here’s a table of common metrics for ai pilot programs:

Metric	Description
Business Impact	ROI and revenue growth from new opportunities.
Performance Metrics	Model accuracy and task-specific KPIs.
User Adoption & Satisfaction	Usage rates and feedback scores.
Operational Efficiency	Time/resource savings achieved.
Scalability Readiness	Technical flexibility and cost of expansion.
Risk Mitigation	Reduction in errors and compliance breaches.
Data Quality Improvements	Enhancements in data cleanliness and availability.
Innovation Impact	New use cases inspired by the pilot.
Time-to-Value	Speed of deployment to measurable results.
Ethical Compliance	Audit results for algorithmic fairness.
Environmental Impact	Sustainability measures like reduced energy use.

Pilot initiatives are your launchpad for ai adoption. With the right use cases, active exploration, and clear measures of success, you set your team up for lasting innovation.

Scaling AI Adoption System

You’ve built a strong foundation and seen early wins. Now, it’s time to scale your ai adoption system so every team can thrive. The AI Adoption Framework shows you how to expand step by step. You don’t need to rush. Focus on what works, then grow your system with confidence.

Institutionalize Best Practices

You want your teams to repeat success, not reinvent the wheel. When you lock in best practices, you make your ai adoption system stronger and more reliable.

Playbooks

Create playbooks that capture what works best for your teams. These guides help everyone follow the same steps and avoid common mistakes. Playbooks make it easy for new teams to join your ai adoption system and get results fast.

Build a repeatable model for choosing and rolling out ai projects.
Set up an AI Center of Excellence to share standards and align with business goals.
Use an AI Factory model to deliver solutions quickly across teams.
Launch an AI Marketplace so everyone can access tools and resources.

Standard Workflows

Standard workflows keep your system running smoothly. When you set clear steps for ai adoption, teams know what to do next. This reduces confusion and helps you scale faster.

Workflow Step	Purpose
Use Case Selection	Pick the right projects for your system
Training & Onboarding	Get teams ready for ai
Feedback Collection	Improve your system with real input
Success Sharing	Spread wins across all teams

Expand Training

As your ai adoption system grows, you need to bring new teams on board. Training is not a one-time thing. You want everyone to feel ready and supported.

New Teams

Start with a simple pilot for each new group. Show quick wins and gather feedback. Share early success stories to build excitement. Offer basic training sessions with real-life examples. Make sure teams have guides and support channels they can use anytime.

Run onboarding programs for new and current employees.
Keep training fresh with regular updates.
Use easy-to-follow guides so teams can learn at their own pace.

Internal Champions

Identify champions in each team. These people lead by example and help others use ai tools. Recognize their efforts and encourage them to share tips. Champions help create a high-adoption culture and keep your system strong.

Encourage peer learning and open discussions about ai.
Celebrate employees who use ai well.

Foster Independence

You want your teams to own their ai adoption system. When teams feel empowered, they solve problems faster and drive innovation.

Team Empowerment

Give teams the tools and freedom to experiment. Let them suggest new ways to use ai. Support their ideas and celebrate their wins. This builds a high-adoption culture where everyone feels involved.

Cross-Team Collaboration

Bring teams together to share what works. Set up regular meetings or chat groups for sharing tips and lessons. When teams learn from each other, your system grows even stronger.

Tip: Start small, master the basics, and expand your ai adoption system one team at a time. This approach leads to lasting success.

AI Governance and Sustainability

You want your ai adoption to last. That means you need strong governance and a plan for sustainability. Let’s look at how you can set up the right structures, keep improving, and make sure your team stays engaged with ai integration.

Governance Structures

You can’t just set up ai and hope for the best. You need clear roles and rules to guide your integration.

Roles and Responsibilities

Start by building an ai governance council. Bring together leaders from IT, HR, Legal, Compliance, Operations, and your frontline teams. This group will oversee decisions and make sure your ai integration stays ethical and effective. Many organizations also appoint a Chief AI Transformation Officer to lead the way and set policies that match your company’s goals.

You should also create a formal AI Governance Framework. This framework acts as your guidebook. It lays out your values and gives practical steps for ai integration. Make sure your deployments align with four pillars of trust: reliability, transparency, capability, and humanity.

Compliance and Ethics

You want your ai integration to follow the rules. Your governance council should check that every ai tool meets legal and ethical standards. Set up regular reviews to catch any risks early. Keep your team informed about privacy, fairness, and safety. When you focus on compliance and ethics, you build trust and protect your organization.

Continuous Improvement

You can’t just launch ai and walk away. You need a process for ongoing improvement. This keeps your integration strong and your users happy.

Feedback Collection

Ask for feedback often. Use surveys, dashboards, and quick check-ins to hear what’s working and what’s not. Early adopters can share their results and help you spot trends. Make sure engineers and leaders see this feedback so they can act fast.

Strategy	Description
Change Management Actions	Early adopters run trials and share metrics; dashboards show insights.
Continuous Improvement Metrics	Update based on feedback, track speed of changes, and quality improvements.
Adaptive Change Models	Use agile, flexible approaches for faster results.
Cultural Transformations	Focus on teamwork, safety, learning, and cross-team collaboration.

Process Iteration

Don’t be afraid to adjust your approach. Add change activities to your sprint planning. Create feedback loops that help you improve each step. When you make small changes often, your ai integration gets better over time.

Maintain Engagement

Keeping your team excited about ai is key for long-term success. You want engagement to last, not fade after launch.

Ongoing Training

Offer regular training sessions. Update your learning plans to match new tools and cultural values. Encourage your team to keep exploring ai integration. When people learn together, they stay curious and confident.

Recognition

Celebrate your team’s wins. Give shout-outs to those who try new things or help others with ai integration. Recognition keeps motivation high and shows that you value everyone’s effort.

Tip: Focus on engagement every step of the way. When you support your team, your ai integration becomes part of your culture.

With the right governance, a strong improvement process, and ongoing engagement, you set your ai adoption up for long-term success.

Overcoming Resistance in AI Adoption

You might notice that even with the best plans, some people still push back against new technology. That’s normal. If you want your ai adoption to succeed, you need to spot resistance early and handle it with care.

Identify Barriers

You can’t fix what you don’t see. Start by looking for the most common roadblocks in your organization.

Change Fatigue

People get tired of constant change. If your team has seen a lot of new tools lately, they might feel worn out. You may hear things like, “Not another system!” or “We just learned something new last month.” This is change fatigue. It slows down ai adoption and lowers excitement.

Here are some common barriers you might face:

Lack of training and onboarding
Resistance to change and skepticism
Poor user experience and complexity
Inadequate communication and awareness
Employee resistance and fear

When you spot these signs, you can take action before they grow.

Skill Gaps

Many teams worry they don’t have the right skills for ai. Some people fear they’ll fall behind or lose their jobs. Others just feel lost when faced with new tools. Skill gaps can stop progress fast.

You can help by offering simple, hands-on training. Show your team how ai fits into their daily work. Make learning feel safe and stress-free.

Change Management

You can’t force people to love ai. You need a plan that builds trust and lowers fear.

Transparent Communication

Talk openly about your ai plans. Share why you’re making changes and how they help everyone. Answer questions and listen to concerns. When you communicate clearly, you build trust and reduce resistance.

Tip: Create safe spaces for your team to test ai tools. Let them experiment without pressure. This boosts confidence and lowers fear.

Incentives

People love rewards. Offer small incentives for trying new ai tools or sharing success stories. Celebrate quick wins and highlight team members who lead the way. Incentives can turn skeptics into champions.

Monitor and Adapt

You need to keep your finger on the pulse. Watch how your team feels and adjust your approach as needed.

User Sentiment

Use tools like surveys or sentiment analysis to check morale. You can track chat messages, emails, or feedback forms to see how people feel about ai. If you spot frustration or confusion, step in fast.

Tool/Method	What It Does
Surveys	Gather honest feedback from users
Sentiment Analysis	Track morale in real time
Quick Polls	Check reactions to new features or changes

Flexible Strategies

Stay flexible. If something isn’t working, change it. Maybe you need more training or a different way to share updates. Keep testing and improving your approach. When you adapt, you show your team that their voice matters.

Note: Evaluating your adoption program helps you find what works and what needs to change. This keeps your ai journey on track.

With the right mindset and tools, you can turn resistance into momentum. Your team will feel ready, supported, and excited to use ai every day.

90-Day Roadmap to AI Success

You want a clear path to make ai work for your team. A 90-day roadmap gives you structure, focus, and momentum. Let’s break down what you can do each week to build a foundation, create habits, run pilots, and scale your ai adoption.

Week-by-Week Plan

Foundation (Weeks 1-2)

Start strong by laying the groundwork. In the first two weeks, you set the tone for your entire ai journey. Gather a cross-functional team. Bring together leaders, IT, frontline users, and anyone who will shape your ai rollout. Map out your goals and pick the first use cases. Assess your data readiness and draft simple governance rules. Choose the right ai platform for your needs.

Tip: Use this time to build trust and excitement. Share your vision and invite feedback from every corner of your organization.

Here’s a quick look at what you should focus on:

Assemble your ai steering committee.
Identify your first use cases.
Check if your data is ready.
Draft basic governance principles.
Select your ai tools.

Habits (Weeks 3-4)

Now, help your team build daily habits with ai. Offer hands-on training and role-based learning. Encourage everyone to try small tasks with ai each day. Set up a help desk and peer support channels. Celebrate early wins and share stories of success.

Run workshops and onboarding sessions.
Launch a communication campaign to keep everyone in the loop.
Create simple challenges or prompts for daily ai use.
Collect feedback and adjust your approach.

Note: Building habits early makes ai feel natural, not forced.

Pilots (Weeks 5-6)

It’s time to put your plans into action. Select 3-5 pilot projects that matter to your business. Assign ai champions to lead each pilot. Document results and share them with your team. Use feedback to improve your approach.

Week	Milestone	Objective	Actions	Deliverables
5-6	Pilot Projects	Show value with quick wins	Select pilots, assign champions, document outcomes	3-5 pilots completed, results shared

Test ai in real scenarios.
Gather user feedback and measure impact.
Adjust your pilots based on what you learn.

Scaling (Weeks 7-12)

You’ve seen what works. Now, expand your ai adoption to more teams. Deliver advanced training and create prompt libraries. Finalize your ai policy and embed governance into daily work. Make ai part of your standard operations.

Week	Milestone	Objective	Actions	Deliverables
7-8	Expand Training	Train more users	Deliver training, offer advanced sessions	Organization-wide training complete
9-10	Institutionalize	Make ai part of daily work	Finalize policy, embed governance	Formal policy, governance in place
11	Build the AI Factory	Standardize delivery	Create repeatable processes, reusable components	AI delivery framework established
12	Scale Adoption & Capability	Expand impact	Roll out to more users, update SOPs	Scaled ai usage across teams

Train new teams and update your guides.
Share best practices and success stories.
Monitor adoption and keep improving.

Tip: Scaling works best when you master the basics first. Don’t rush—grow at a pace your team can handle.

Key Metrics

You want to know if your ai adoption is working. The right metrics help you track progress, spot problems, and celebrate wins.

User Satisfaction

Happy users are the heart of successful ai adoption. Use surveys and feedback channels to measure how your team feels. Look for trends in satisfaction and motivation. Studies show that when users feel motivated, they get better results and enjoy their work more. In fact, motivation can account for over 70% of the positive impact ai has on satisfaction.

Run regular user satisfaction surveys.
Track feedback and look for improvement over time.
Celebrate stories of users who feel empowered by ai.

Adoption Rates

Adoption rates tell you how many people actually use ai tools. Track active users, feature usage, and workflow completion. Organizations with strong support see adoption rates as high as 70-85%. If your rates are low, offer more training or support.

Support Level	Adoption Rate (%)
Minimal Support	10-25
Basic Support	25-45
Comprehensive Support	45-70
Expert Support	70-85

Monitor usage data weekly.
Identify teams or roles with low adoption.
Offer targeted help where needed.

Business Impact

You want to see real results from your ai investment. Track metrics like time savings, decision accuracy, revenue growth, and operational efficiency. These numbers show how ai changes your business for the better.

Metric	Description
Time Savings	Tasks get done faster, boosting productivity.
Decision Accuracy	Better decisions lead to stronger outcomes.
Revenue Growth	More revenue comes from smarter ai-driven actions.
Operational Efficiency	Teams work smarter, not harder, saving resources.

Compare before-and-after results for key processes.
Share wins with leadership and your team.
Use these insights to plan your next ai projects.

Note: The best ai adoption stories start with happy users and end with real business results.

With this 90-day roadmap, you can move from planning to action. You’ll build habits, run pilots, and scale your ai adoption with confidence. Keep your eyes on user satisfaction, adoption rates, and business impact. That’s how you turn ai into a true advantage for your team.

You’ve seen how a 90-day roadmap can turn your team into happy users and make ai adoption scalable. When you start with executive sponsorship, align ai with business goals, and build a solid data foundation, you set yourself up for success. Early pilots and workflow redesigns show the real value of ai fast. Upskill your people, create ai champions, and track what matters. With Workspace Heroes and the AI Adoption Framework, you can make ai part of your culture. Take the first step—your ai journey starts now!

FAQ

What makes Workspace Heroes’ AI Adoption Framework different?

You get a step-by-step plan that focuses on behavior change, not just technology. The framework helps you build happy users and scale ai adoption quickly.

How long does it take to see results with ai?

Most teams notice improvements within the first month. You start with small wins, then build habits. By 90 days, you see real business impact from ai.

Do I need technical skills to use ai tools?

You don’t need to be an expert. The framework offers role-based training and hands-on workshops. You learn how to use ai in your daily tasks.

How do I keep users engaged with ai?

You can use daily challenges, peer sharing, and recognition. Continuous support and feedback loops help your team stay motivated and excited about ai.

What if my team resists ai adoption?

You can address concerns with open communication and incentives. The framework helps you spot barriers early and adapt your approach so everyone feels comfortable using ai.

How do I measure success with ai?

You track user satisfaction, adoption rates, and business impact. Simple metrics show how ai improves productivity and decision-making. You can share wins with your team.

Can I scale ai adoption across multiple teams?

Yes! You start small, master the basics, and expand gradually. Playbooks and standard workflows make it easy to roll out ai to new teams.

Is ai adoption sustainable long-term?

You keep ai adoption strong with governance, ongoing training, and regular feedback. The framework helps you build a culture where ai becomes part of everyday work.

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Okay, welcome to another edition of the 365 podcast and how to get happy users and make

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AI that just scalable in 90 days with Karina the Vries today.

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And yeah, Karina, it's really interesting.

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Character, so she is an MVP for Teams and co-pilot, founder of the workspace heroes and speaker

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all at the ignite and I see she was a mendition in the top 10 and also a broad member of Dutch

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women's in peck and yeah, that's also an interesting topic.

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I will start with this.

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I see the Netherlands has these interesting women in tech culture.

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I see there it's Thin Coconelson if he found her, I think I pronounced the EV.

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I say EV, founder, Felden and yeah, it's what's make this so this, yeah, Dutch women in

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tech, so famous.

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So well, that's a good question.

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Well, first off, thank you for having me.

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And after a series of your solo podcasts, I'm very happy that I can be one of the first

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members who can join you with this format.

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So thank you.

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Well, you mentioned Thinco and AV and you pronounce both right, so Thinco and AV are also

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in Dutch women in tech and of course, Thinco is the founder of Dutch women in tech and

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I joined as one of the first women in her movement.

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And I think especially due to work that Thinco has been doing for about four years now, it's

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really a common topic to talk about in the Netherlands and somehow she made it possible

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for a community like us to grow and to have a certain kind of name.

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And currently we are even evolving Dutch women in tech because we saw in the last year that

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the topic is rather common now to talk about diversity and inclusion.

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So what we saw is that we needed to take the next step with Dutch women in tech and we

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are now embedding a Dutch approach in multiple communities in the Netherlands because we truly

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believe that we should have more women in the workplace.

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And the best thing to do so is to get those women in the workplace and not just in our Dutch

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women in tech communities.

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So first we started with getting the women to us and help them feel comfortable and find

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a common ground in the community like I am the only women in my company, what do I need

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to do or can you help me?

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And now we've established that so we need to take them back to the workplaces that work

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is becoming progressively more men.

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And that's a new shift that we are taking and I feel like that the Netherlands is ready

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to take this new role of diversity and inclusion but it's also due to a lot of artwork like Famke

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and A.V.

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Yeah, I've found that it's so...

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Yeah, for my feeling I don't know it's right but I see my feeling it's nearly 50/50

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women and men in the MVP program and here in Germany or other countries.

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Yeah, that's so cool.

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What's it like in Germany then?

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What's the balance between women and men in Germany?

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I only know it from the LinkedIn Graph API and you have nearly 23% women in tech.

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And I think it's so...

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It's very important to do this job and I think we have to look at the Netherlands for this

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because it's so good.

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I really feel...

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I don't know, not proud for the Netherlands doing this great job and I think it's coming

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a little bit from these more SNE thinking, small and midsize company thinking.

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We have a lot of big companies and I think it's more hard to join.

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I don't know, it's right.

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But it's still in the Netherlands if you see numbers in the Netherlands we only have 18% women in tech.

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So that's even lower and of course if you take to women working at the marketing department

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or finance department, if you count them in how many women do we have in IT then it's more

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but if you really specifically look at tech jobs, check tech roles then it's really low.

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So that's why we feel like of course in the Netherlands is very open for diversity and inclusion

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but if you look at the numbers we still have a lot of work to do.

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I think it's more only...

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I see it only on the NDP side and there I see it.

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There are a lot of women in this program.

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Luckily.

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Then Microsoft do a good job or...

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Of course.

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We also need Microsoft for it and Microsoft is...

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What I really love is that there's a growing community part in events like we have...

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Ignited was also but it's also in European, the European ECS.

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And you see multiple or large events in the Netherlands but also in Europe and also in America now with the help of Microsoft.

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And the most important events are having specific topics on women in IT or women voices in IT.

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And that's also really helpful for us as well.

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So we also try to send someone from our community to those conversations.

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And I think that's also really helpful that especially Microsoft is helping driving this inclusiveness culture.

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You are a double NDP right in Teams and co-pilot?

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No, I'm just in Microsoft 365 MFP but in the technology teams and co-pilot.

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So I'm a single MFP.

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But it was also hard to come in.

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But yeah, I'm a single MFP.

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I work for example, just recently got her first MFP recognition and she got two MFP recognition in co-pilot and 365.

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So I was really proud of her.

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But I'm just just in one category and MFP but that's...

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I'm very proud of that as well so.

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Yeah.

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So I'm a single today. It's talked a little bit about co-pilot and if you had to explain co-pilot to your grandmother in one sentence, how will you do it?

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To my grandmother, okay.

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Well, she's no longer among us.

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So let me explain it to my mom.

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I just tell her it's an assistant.

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It's a technology assistant and it can help me with all sorts of tasks.

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I think that's the best way to describe it.

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And I give her the example of I don't like to write long reports.

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And I'm not that good at long documents.

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So I always try to help...

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Let me help, for example, an AI assistant to help me write a document and explain it like that.

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And then she understands what I'm talking about, talking about.

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And that's just the simple version of co-pilot that we're not even talking about co-pilot studio or whatsoever.

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So I just keep it simple and say, this is what it can help me with in my daily task.

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And then I give an example of a daily task that she or the person I'm talking to can resonate with.

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How do you explain it to people?

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Oh, yeah.

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I'm most... I show the meme and the store where one guy is there and say, okay, I have only five points.

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And then it makes me a long email.

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That'd be another...

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Who get the email makes... might be five points from it.

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No.

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This is more the funny part.

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I think it's something that helps you get more productivity in your work.

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And I think that one thing and the other thing is...

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It's a little bit critical because I think it's...

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All the people, I see, okay, I can do it with the AI and I think, okay, there are other services you can use like vector data basis and so on.

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And it's more...

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Sheeper.

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So, yeah.

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I also find it hard to explain.

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And I think it's a very productive colleague you have on your side.

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Well, and I think it's obvious that we talk about productivity.

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It's also like in the back in the days when I was helping customers implement a sharepoint.

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We also said it's going to help you make you more productive, which in the end was very hard measurable with your documents stared in a short...

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So, stored in SharePoint.

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But nowadays we can really say it's productive, but I feel like the best thing I get out of using co-pilot is quality.

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And being able to do more in the time, of course, that's productivity, but productivity always has a...

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Well, more or less negative feeling for me.

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So, that's why I try to aim it on the positive side.

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I can do more and help more people or get more quality in my work that I deliver.

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So, yeah.

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Well, that's my kind of takeaway with SharePoint implementation in the background.

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So, I look a little bit in your LinkedIn profile.

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Oh, dear.

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And you started as application manager.

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How did you shape your...

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How did it shape your adaption mindset today?

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Well, I have to be honest that I started earlier my career not being in IT, but as a secretary, I worked 10 years as a secretary.

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And as a secretary, you're always asked for help like my brainter isn't working or how do I make a formula in Excel or my outlook is stock.

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What can I do? And whatever kind of question.

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So, it was very common that users, colleagues came to me and asked a question.

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And I'm always curious and always wanting an eager to learn more.

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So, of course, people went to me because I always found out the answer.

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And along the way, people asked me for projects, IT projects, like implementing a new SharePoint system or implementing a new finance system because of my curiosity.

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And as a secretary, my secretary, my role in organizations, I always knew the different parts of processes that were involved in the organization.

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So, I kind of was on the other side like a super user, I guess, and a help, a buddy system for my colleagues.

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So, at my last organization where I worked as a secretary, I got asked to join the IT department since they were minimizing secretary roles.

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It was a phase a couple of years ago where secretary roles were declining.

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And then when I started as an application manager for a CRM system, which was not my thing, by the way.

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But I do like working for IT. And then since the system wasn't really in my DNA or not really getting me the most fun of it, I started working as an application manager at a water company.

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And that was when I got hooked on IT because they were rolling out a workplace update to, I believe it was Windows 7 from XP to Windows 7.

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And they had 700 applications running on their workplace, which was really, really a lot because they only had 600 people working there.

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And then got me in TREE because IT said, "Yeah, we have so much applications. We need to do something about it, but we have no clue where to start."

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And then I said, "Well, let me talk to all the users, so I talk to all the users." And then found out that people really had a good argument for using those applications.

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So, we tried to rationalize it to back to 200 applications. Of course, was a little bit less than the 7.

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But it still showed me that users have voice and users understand what they need to do to get their work done. And that's a little bit different than an IT department says, "You should use my applications because I think you can use them."

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And then I found out pretty soon in my career that people always have a good reason to use technology.

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And it always has to be something beneficial to their daily jobs. And if you understand why they're using or what they're doing in their daily jobs, and it's much more easy for me to understand how can I make technology work for them.

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So, that's when I got hooked up to user adoption, and I've never touched a new project without adoption in it.

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Yeah, that's a long, that's now, I think it's now 14 years ago.

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And does work the moment the works place here was born?

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No, I started as an internal employee, and then along the way, like I said, I understood quite soon, and early on, how user adoption should help organizations, but I came across organizations who weren't able to sell that to their customers.

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So, most of the times I was sent to clients, our projects that were just helping their users with just one training, like a one simple SharePoint training or a simple team training.

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And I really got mentally frustrated with, because I always say we have a saying in the Netherlands, that's like, if someone looks like me, like a deer in the headlights of a...

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If a car, so that's a duck saying, and that was always appealing.

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I was just always in front of those training sessions or workshop sessions, and people were looking at me and thinking, yeah, I kind of understand what you're going through with the application, but I still don't feel it.

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I still don't understand how to use them on daily jobs.

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So, I got frustrated with that approach from most of the IT organizations, and then I... That was eight years ago, I stopped working for a company and started starting my own company, and that was works with your own.

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Yeah.

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Okay, awesome. What did you do at the workspace here for your clients?

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I started helping with setting up the right training approach, like a training plan or training brochure and also with communication plans.

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So, what do we need to communicate? It's also a very hard question.

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80% of IT projects fail because of a lack of the correct communication, and we always seem to focus on training, but we forget that we need to focus on communication.

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And so, along the way, I, before even upcar and pro-sci was mentioned by Microsoft, I already started working on my own approach, and that's what I usually use at customers nowadays.

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And it's just the basic way of in a day, I can help organizations set up the strategy for communication training, and then they can make sure that they either do it themselves, because I really feel like organizations use less consultants instead of more.

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I feel like that's the way, oh, nowadays, we can do more than just help them execute their strategies. So, I feel like organizations should do their own strategies, and if they really want my help, then of course, I can also help them implement the adoption strategy as well.

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But, along the way, and that's especially in COVID time, I have my own team. In COVID time, we had a really hard time moving forward.

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Clients all got training for free. Maybe you remember that, that Microsoft started giving webinars for free, and most, especially the large companies in the Netherlands started helping their clients with free trainings.

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So, my company had a hard time, because we still offered them, but they had to pay for it. So, we had a really struggling time, so I had to let my people go, and I went on alone.

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And nowadays, I only work with independent trainers and consultants, so I'm kind of like now more a sales channel than first a, because I'm also evolving in my company and in my activity.

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So, people can still hire me for strategy, or whatever they need on adoption. But most of the times, I just come for a day, and I tell them what they can do, and I guide them to the rights organization to help them further more.

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When we jumped in the topic, making, I, I, I, uh, do, you know, uh, or scalable in 90J. So, what, or how will you describe, uh, a happy user?

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Hmm. That's a very good.

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Well, happy is, um, I think happy is explainable to everyone. It's a term that everyone uses differently. Let me say so. So, what makes you happy wouldn't make me happy or the other way around.

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So, I think that's also, um, that question being asked to your organization is a good way to start an adoption process.

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If we implement a technology, will it make our users happy? And to know if it makes them happy, you have to ask them.

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So, asking me this question, I feel like no one has ever asked me this question, you're the first one who asked me, what is a happy user?

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Which is, which is exactly what we need to do. We have to ask people more instead of assuming what makes them happy. So, compliments to you for asking this question.

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And happy, I will, if you see what I feel like a happy user should be like, it's someone who can use the technology in the best way possible to do their daily jobs.

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And even so, it, it's going to make them feel, um, uh, happy in their work, happy with the quality, happy with the output and also happy mentally, because I feel like we have way too much technology in our daily lives.

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And I feel like technology should also also make you happy without using technology. So, uh, that's also something that I feel like it would be a happy user.

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So, two sites on the question, we need to ask each other what, what makes you happy and the other side is how I feel like happy means for me.

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Yeah, I think sometimes, uh, I see, I'm more from the data side, um, like fabric and so on. And, uh, no.

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The companies ask more, what make people successful?

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Uh, no, we are more money. I think that's the wrong questions, but it's has, from the management and they have a different look than the user.

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Also, uh, yeah. And, well, in your, your trick are you make us, I had a conversation the other week and someone said to me, uh, I see companies don't like to talk about adoption because they can measure the outcome.

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And I feel that's, that's not true, because if you adoption isn't the question, it's about, what do we need to do to make you have happy in your work or make you thrive in your work?

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And that's measurable. So the, uh, the word adoption is immeasurable, but what you're trying to adopt is measurable. So I feel like that you're really, uh, nailing the point there.

192
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Yeah.

193
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Uh, I have me, I, I think it's both, uh, uh, and, um, I don't know what the English word for this. It's like, um, yeah, ambassador from putan.

194
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And they have, and for the people and happiness index, how happy people are, and I think that that's also cool to think about because, yeah, that's a lot of implementation.

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We have like, yeah, how long stay users, how can that? So I think that's really, really interesting topic to make. Yeah, the, the users are the end, uh, users happy with the system and also with AI.

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But when, when we start, we have the same, uh, a phase one, I called it so a little bit understanding and discovery. So in the first 30 days, what should companies focus on first and AI?

197
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I think you're referring to the 90 days approach, which, uh, where I talked about during a Microsoft ignite, um, I see in the, we have the first 14 days is making sure we get our guard reals ready.

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So I feel like that we're taking too long of a time to make sure we can roll out a program because the basic thing is we need to know how to communicate and we need to know what people should learn.

199
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I feel like, especially with co-pilot and, and if you ask an expert like you and me on a certain technology, you and I know for our specific technologies, what you should learn and what you should communicate, right?

200
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So if you're, if you have the right, uh, expert on board of your program or your project, you can really, uh, dense the time that you should prep adoption rollout.

201
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So that's the first 14 days, but if you, at least now, if you think you need more time, of course, but I really want to challenge organizations in the first 14 days to get the guard reals ready for and setting up your project team to roll out the next of the 75 days.

202
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So, and then afterwards then we start with the 30 days, which you are referring to and those are the 30 days who are really, which are really critical for implementing and new way of working because.

203
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And I, and I try to keep and repeating this sentence, co pilot is not about technology, co pilot is about building new behavior and I see lots of colleagues and they are doing the best and I love that they're doing, please share so, but it's all about technology.

204
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But the technology of co pilot isn't really the hard part, it's the part that you need to embed it in your daily jobs like if you want help from co pilot reviewing your outlook emails and you want to have that in a certain way and it's going to be a consistent way of working and a consistent way of using your outlook and consistent way of replying emails.

205
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You should consistently use co pilot, you know, so if I send you an email with bullets and it's really recognizable that it's drawn by AI and the next day I'm writing my own email, the difference is too large.

206
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So, you have to make sure that if you use co pilot in a task, you should repeatedly do so.

207
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And that's what the 30 days are aimed for, so make sure to build a habit in using co pilots.

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So, now, how do you do that? I feel like you should build a cadence in helping people on a daily or almost daily task help them get co pilot in your system.

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So, what I advise organizations is to start every Monday with the best co pilot tip that could be applicable to most of the organization.

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So, in example, using co pilot in outlook and but it could also be using co pilot in a meeting or using co pilot in your one note or your document.

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So, whatever, if you feel like it should be the best tip to start them with and to do so and to help them make sure you have a meeting like a Q&A meeting along the first week that you gave the tip.

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And you give a tip on Monday and you, for example, have a Q&A on Wednesday.

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And then the best thing also with happy users, people want to learn and see it's really beneficial that I've used and learned and something new.

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So, at the end of the week, you want to let people share their best prompts and say, well, I've tried using co pilot in this way.

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And I feel like you should try it too.

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You can build your prompt library with that. So, if you have a project team ready, they can review all the problems that people are using.

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And then you can say, okay, well, these are the five best tips and you can share them as well in your company to gain more knowledge on how to build the best prompts.

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And that's the thing that you keep on repeating.

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So, Monday, a tip, Wednesday, a Q&A and Friday sharing your knowledge. And to do so, that means as you are working with co pilot on three days per week, which is already building a habit.

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And if you consistently do so, then at the end of the four weeks, I hope users have just what at least one task that they're, that they're, that they became a fan of.

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And are trying to use or wanting to use it along the 30 days.

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So, that's the first phase of the 30 days.

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And when you, when we look at it, what are warning signs that something is going wrong in the company through a college, the road out phase or the understanding is cover-free.

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And there are a couple of things that could go wrong if you want to say so. And that's, that people are not coming to your Q&A sessions or not sharing knowledge at the end of the week.

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So those are the really two things that you should look out for.

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You can, you can, and it's really organization specific, what you should do about it. But most of the times what I try to do about is make sure there's a knowledge of the people who are in the, in the face that you're currently in.

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So the users that you're targeting should, you should know your users, of course.

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And you should know how to contact them because some organizations have a,

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and I was like, well, if you're not in the right place, I'm not going to be on the right place. And you should know that you're not going to be on the right place.

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What, what's this called communication tool? So like, are we going to use outlook? Are we going to use internet? Are we going to use a team's chat or whatever you're going to do with make sure your communication goes to the people in that you can measure if they're reading it, yes or no.

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So make sure that your communication is in the right place. And the other thing is make sure you have at least five to 10 users that you know that are really a fan of this way of working and let at least let them share at least some tips on the Friday.

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Because if people see tips coming in, then they're eager to share it as well. So, and if not, it's like fake it till you make it. That's also something in the beginning because community work is really hard to help helping a community builds your adoption strategy like ambassadors is really, really hard.

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So make sure fake it till you make it make sure that you are the first one in your project team who shares the tips and make sure you get some users in and really you should really help them share their knowledge as well.

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So those are the basic two tips I can I can I can give you so far.

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That is awesome. I read a little bit about your philosophy. Sorry for for for what bad Netherlands are you call it the triangle for simple.

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Oh God. I yeah, I'm the one for simple and it's a can you down the.

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Yeah, so yeah for wondering so that's like being I'm not quite sure. Let me let me think what the English word for is it's it's like being curious I guess it's about being curious to your users.

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It's also like well previously you asked me what is happy user well that's a that's a that's a question specifically known for being eager to understand your community area uses so

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we try to or return to do the best things we can I like I see professionals we always feel like that we want to do the best for our organization or the people we want to help but we also because we know more than the current users.

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We also assume things and of course that's that human but that's something that you really should try to train yourself on and that's what the first phase is about the so the for wondering phase is about do I really understand my users and do I really understand what their daily problems or questions are.

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And then the other one for simple is of course make it simple I don't have to tell you that it's not very helpful to use.

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I see what's it called a language so try to make it as simple as possible try to talk the language as your users please do not tell them it's an easy solution because it's most of times not.

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Although we feel like a prompt is an easy thing a user doesn't so never say it's simple so also try to align with the language and align with the knowledge that the person is in so try to make your language simple but also try to make technology simple and.

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Along the way for the 14 years I've been doing this I see that we for example we implement Microsoft 365 we turn on all the applications which are in the license because people paid for it but people never use it so if you don't make it simple please be aware that you are setting up a license bundle of possibilities but it's never from really helpful I'd rather see organizations.

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Close the applications and just say well we're starting without look and we're starting with one drive and then we're starting of course with your office and if that's going well then we're starting teams and share point and if that goes well we start with planner of course and then we start with you know what I'm trying to say is make the technology simple and start with the basics and if people understand the basic then pile it with new functionality or extra functionality.

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And there to talk to your customers and say opening a license and opening a software solution isn't going to help them use it so please understand that that's the part I used to make it simple and then the third phase is about for Ankara and that's embed of course I don't know how many projects you've done in IT but I can probably can relate to this at least what I see at most organizations.

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We do it and run and we do it very successfully so we implement an IT solution and then that's almost always down with senior consultants and then we leave it to juniors service desk employees.

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So that's the really I can't really grab that so what I say if you want to embed this in your organization also make sure it's embedded in a senior approach so is your service after the implementation also met with the senior way of working so I don't want to bring a service employee and they're saying I don't know the answer that I have to ask my colleague you know.

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So that's also something that are really aimed for so and if you look at from an adoption side the hard part is that if you have used your champions so you're Microsoft 365 champions if you don't make sure you guide them after the implementation they will for sure leave your company in two years off or you've done the project.

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So if you want to embed new technology all I'm sure that you embed your help help and your adoption lines after the project so those are the three phases that I try to my philosophy is about these three steps.

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I have a little bit downrightening for me you have this discovery phase, simply phase of adoption and embedding behavior phase so yeah.

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But I want to do the second phase and I have read your yeah, my script from the ignite and you say simplifying is more important than adding more features I'm more on the more feature side but yeah.

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I can imagine but this is exactly the problem that we have problem this is exactly the balancing that we need to do because that's why I also always want to be a part of a technical project at early phases because I'm not trying to minimize features what I'm trying to say if the minimize features at the start of the project then the adoption rate is way much higher.

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So let's say we have 10 features we want to implement but the first two or three are very critical and if we do not make sure that people are really understanding those first two or three critical features and they're not grabbing those and grasping that in their daily lives and in their daily jobs are we sure that the other seven to eight features are helping them because if they don't understand the basis of the phase.

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And the basis of the functionalities and features that we've we've thrown at them how are we going to make sure that they're using the other features so I'm not trying to minimize features I'm just saying be sure to implement them in an easier simpler way.

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I think in this yeah a that's in face what role does the leadership playing hmm yeah well that's the always the biggest of fun question without leadership you're not you're you're you're you're you're nowhere basically so.

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I don't know what it's called what's like in in Germany but I feel like Germany is even more progressive way in or in their leadership than the none less progressive I think it then an element so.

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In the Netherlands how it works is you have a sea level management that says okay this is the route for taking of course we want to use AI sure go as fix it we give you a budget and let's go and then the project team starts to run and implement it and then that's not just the the one thing sea level wants to be to have implemented they have ten kinds of ideas they want to have implemented like.

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A scrum way or working or a new customer philosophy or whatever organizational changes they want to do so in the daily lives when a sea level decides we want to do something then then then we go to middle management and then middle management says yeah well okay well this is not the only initiative my sea level wants me to do I have multiple tasks to and I have my daily job.

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So I have all these new things sea level wants me to implement and I have my daily job so what do I need to do and what do I need to prioritize and I think that's the biggest problem we currently have also with AI sea level says yeah we need to have AI let's go and then middle management says yeah well I don't understand AI so much and I have my daily problems and probably also I'm afraid of my job to be honest.

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To be honest so that's really really a difficult problem so middle management is always a target audience that I try to embed my adoption approach and I feel like this is also a call out to sea level all these initiatives are very nice but make sure you help your middle management prioritize what's needed the most.

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And don't become your story with embedding behavior of it's fun current yeah how do you you turn from a cool demo into a daily habits.

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You remember the 30 days of we talked about earlier in this conversation it's very hard to help people implement a daily a new daily habit like I have my bottle of water and I'm also drinking a cup of coffee and I had a I all I

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have a bottle of water with me cost me 90 days to do so and have it having it a daily routine because it takes about 28 days to build a daily routine but building it into a habit takes even 60 days more so and that's also something in in case of simplifying

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and also less features because if I want to have one feature in my daily system that's go to take me 90 days and if I want to have 10 features that's going to take me 900 days.

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If you implement them all one after the other but what we do is we have those 10 features and want to pile up in 190 days well that's very very hard to build that habit so I think that's the first thing that we have to take into account and that's building a habit is very very difficult.

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And if that's a thing to start with then I hope we have will have an easier pace on on feature implementing and then if you have that in your system and in your mind I feel like the rest will follow as well.

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And also a hard topic I think I get this but when we talk about governance and compliance how will you make sure companies will this adapt to co-pilot.

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Well I try to stay as far away as I can from governance and compliance to be honest because that's a real topic on its own but of course I need some governance and compliance you ready to have my adoption also make it available or make it successful because people will ask me when can I use it?

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That's those two questions or are already governance questions so the difficult thing is that we try to wait on governance that's something we also see in the Netherlands for a long time now I can start my adoption since there are no governance is very much a sentence that I hear a lot and I don't feel like that's really necessary.

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So I have set a set a minimal things ready in your in your tenant which make sure that your data will stay in your tenant if you have those covered then you can really start co-pilot of course.

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And along the way we will make the governance ready like in our team we use co-pilot for this task that's something that you can really help organizations with alongside your adoption rollout.

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But I'm the 100-dog human space of governance and compliance is not really spent for me so I'll leave that to experts to be honest so yeah well it's a love and hate with governance.

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Yeah, I know that it's completely and I see you you are really people focused in your model and can you share a success story about the complete adoption?

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Well there are lots of stories where people say I think one of the most one that struck me the most was one with a pretty recent client was a man and he had a question.

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And then I was kind of resistant to the change that I was bringing to them and then I spoke with him and I said well I understand your resistance but it's something that we need to tackle so what can I do to help you.

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And then he said well basically this is my problem or this is my question.

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And then I tried to sit with him and he got his explanation and it was really a human conversation to say so.

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Also with another one person in a session it was an Apple user and he had to shift from his bring your own device to a true sure on device and it was really an Apple fan so you probably understand what the feeling was for that gentleman.

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And then I just said yeah I understand your frustration but it's not my decision to do so I can help you of course and sometimes I just ask people to leave because if they're in way too much of a resistance then it's not very beneficial to sit in my session so then I asked them to leave and have a conversation then I'll talk to them one on one.

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But the first gentleman in my example he came up to me a few weeks after and he said I've never been helped like you did before in my life and it was really helpful and you have a fan for life now.

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So it's if my basic thing is and I have lots of those of conversations along along my career and it's I try to be.

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Well you can have a human approach but then you have to be human too you know so if I talk to you and it's and you have a problem then I want to understand what what your problem is and what's making you tick and what's making you.

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Get the best out of your daily job and if you if you do not have that curiosity then adoption is not a thing for you.

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Yeah so yeah well I think that's that's the one that stuck with me the most yeah yeah I try not to judge Apple users.

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Yeah I try.

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I agree.

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But is there a thing funny or unexpected story you can tell about a copilot or lots?

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Funny or unexpected yeah for you.

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Well yeah well funny I don't know what I think the most thing the it's not yeah well let me say something else because I feel like now especially in the Netherlands where we are still quite early in adopting copilot.

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I just see a lot of people who are ashamed of using AI or starting to use AI and I really love people to to be more open and curious in the Netherlands we have a pretty large campaign going on a sovereign cloud solution.

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So sovereignty is really it's up in the Netherlands and I feel like people are very hesitating on or hesitating on using copilot and there are a lot of.

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Well false accusations about Microsoft technology so I feel like that's really hard to come come around and help understand people use copilot for.

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In a in a large or broader skill and I feel like I what I try to do is make it very simple like last December we have since our class maybe you heard of it's like Santa Claus but then in earlier December we have two times the Santa Claus people really don't understand that.

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So what I try to do is send people at promise which they can use to make a poem because that's a tradition and that we do in the Netherlands and I feel like that's the thing to people if if we can make it with those kind of examples make it very easy to use and make it an example that's in our in their daily jobs.

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I feel like that's the thing that we should do to make it more accessible and and and that particular prompt was very funny so that's the only funny part of copilot I've seen so far but I feel like there's really a lot to do about helping people start with copilot.

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I think there was a band talk talk they make in 1948 is long such a shame I think that's more about using copilot.

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So but yeah how do you yeah convince get the call employees to yeah to even try copilot.

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Now along my career I started to convince people less and less you probably know the innovation curve of four years which states you have early adopters and innovators and early majority and that's together is 50% of your organization and I've seen along the way that if you focus on the first three 1550% of your organization that the other ones that need more convincing will join you.

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After the first people started using technology show.

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But that's that's also something that you need to do a lot.

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It that way of thinking of approaching adoption is really something that I got along my career so it gave me more confidence to use this this approach because in earlier days I always started to go to people with the most of the time.

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I don't know with the most of the resistance but is no nowhere near fun working for me than then working with people who are really happy to use technology so it's also a mind shift for me that I try to skip the resistance in an organization and just start building on what's already there and it's way more fun building in that flow than in your resistance flow so.

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If the resistance is large is also an extra question you could ask me but that's never the point there I've come to a company where the resistance is more than 50% that's that's I've never seen in my life so make sure that you try to start and work with the more enthusiastic people.

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It's really cool and no we came to my favorite part of every session I call it the hot take part yeah it's quick options more thinking and yeah agree disagree or spicy take and I ask three or five questions so let's go.

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Yeah cool most companies are buying AI before understanding their workflow.

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Yes agree. A mandatory eye training is usually fans again what did you say mandatory a eye training usually fails.

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No.

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I won't replace jobs but people using AI will. Yes agreed.

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The biggest blogger to co-pilot successful leadership agreed.

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Governance is boring neutral you become a disaster.

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I'm not going to answer that one.

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Yeah this was awesome a really cool session I love it but we're on.

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Thank you.

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If you say from this session if let's not remember only one thing from this talk what should it be.

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Well I think it's really understand your users talk to them they're just people just like you with me try to make it simple not only your adoption or pros but also your technology.

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And make sure what to do after implementation so not only aim on the implementation phase but also on the embed phase.

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Thank you. That was an awesome session. Thank you so much.

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Thank you so much.

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And yeah I say all the information about you that people find in the show notes and can contact you on LinkedIn and so on.

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And yeah so then I say thank you for for your time. It was a really good session. Thank you so much.

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Thank you for having me.

Mirko Peters

Founder of m365.fm, m365.show and m365con.net

Mirko Peters is a Microsoft 365 expert, content creator, and founder of m365.fm, a platform dedicated to sharing practical insights on modern workplace technologies. His work focuses on Microsoft 365 governance, security, collaboration, and real-world implementation strategies.

Through his podcast and written content, Mirko provides hands-on guidance for IT professionals, architects, and business leaders navigating the complexities of Microsoft 365. He is known for translating complex topics into clear, actionable advice, often highlighting common mistakes and overlooked risks in real-world environments.

With a strong emphasis on community contribution and knowledge sharing, Mirko is actively building a platform that connects experts, shares experiences, and helps organizations get the most out of their Microsoft 365 investments.

Carina de Vries

just me

Bio Carina de Vries

Carina de Vries is a Microsoft MVP for Teams and Copilot, an IT adoption expert, and the founder of Workspace Heroes. For more than thirteen years, she has helped organizations not only implement technology, but make it understandable, usable, and valuable for the people who work with it every day.

Her career started as an application manager for office automation. That background gave her a broad understanding of the digital workplace: from infrastructure and IT management to end users, work processes, and change readiness. It allows her to quickly identify where organizations get stuck when moving to cloud technology, Microsoft 365, Teams, and Copilot.

Carina is often asked to support complex adoption and migration projects, especially in organizations where technology has already been rolled out, but real usage is still lagging behind. Her belief is clear: IT adoption is much more than a single training session. It is about behavior, work agreements, governance, communication, leadership, and making change easier to understand and act on.

With her approach, she helps organizations move from technology to behavior. One of her guiding principles is her own 3 V’s: Verwonderen, Versimpelen, and Verankeren. This means first understanding what is really happening in the workplace, then making the change smaller and easier to grasp, and finally embedding new behavior into daily work.

Alongside her work as a consultant and speaker, Carina actively shares knowledge through LinkedIn, webinars, podcasts, and community …Read More

How to get happy users and how to make AI adoption scalable within 90 days with Carina de Vries [MVP]