From Pilot to Production: Building Enterprise AI That Actually Delivers with Leon Gordon [MVP]

Yeah, hello everybody, and welcome back to EM 365 and podcast. Today's guest is someone who has spent more than 15 years helping organization turn ambitious data strategies into measurable business outcomes. He is the five time Microsoft MVP founder of Onik State, a creator of the top tap ops governance platform for technology council member, Oxford site, AI, Aluminum, Alpha, international speaker, and one of the leading voices on Microsoft fabric governance and enterprise AI adoption rather focused on AI demos that never leave the lab. His work focused on the what happened after the excitement being organizations moved from pilots to production through governance, Microsoft fabric, Microsoft P.O. is the Monday modeling and measured Roy. He is the creator of the concept, no, as the pilot text highlighting why so many AI initiatives fail before they ever deliver real business value. Leon, it's a pleasure to have you on the EM 365 podcast. Will I come to the show? Oh, fantastic, Mercco. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. And that introduction has just reminded me how, how much help is the I am? Yeah, I don't hold, I don't think we've got. No, not at all. Thank you for going through that. What a mouthful to try and get through. So thank you. They are for I don't think it's not so much people much for listening to you for the first time. Who is Leon Gordon? So I mean, just to give you some context and I guess about me, so I own and operate a Microsoft fabric consultancy called on X data, whereby we have a team of Microsoft MVPs that really support organizations to implement fabric, but also to give that governed environment for them to go and then adopt a value from the technologies in the artificial intelligence realm on top of that specifically focused on Microsoft technologies, but we're also a data bricks and snowflake partner as well. I guess the question was more who who is Leon Gordon. So if I give you a bit about my history, it might form a little bit about who I am today. So something that people tend to find quite interesting is that I didn't go to traditional route into analytics or into artificial intelligence. I actually left school at the GCSE level in United Kingdom to go straight into a football scholarship, which led to me being a footballer until I was around about 18 or 19, which means I didn't go to traditional university route as much of my peers and colleagues. So what that meant is that I ended up starting from what I would call fairly close to the bottom of the engineering or data analytics stack really doing data entry and then working my way up through Microsoft technologies, starting with T SQL, SAS, so that's analysis services SSIS, which is integration services SSRS reporting services before landing in power be I and then going on to machine learning and artificial implementation. So very much on the job experience and being self taught throughout my whole career, and then I've gone on to utilize this to build communities of like minded people and to give those people the opportunities that I didn't have as well coming through the industry. Was there one project that completely changed your change how you think about enterprise data? Yeah, absolutely. So I had the joy of delivering a Microsoft customer success story. So Microsoft deemed this project that we delivered to be good enough to actually be demonstrated by them as a customer success story and also featured at both build and ignite that year as well. It was not only a proud moment for me, but we also delivered this as one of the first and largest implementations of fabric in the UAE, so United Arab Emirates and also utilizing space X data as part of that implementation alongside an organization called Elkham and a friend and colleague Jimmy Grew and they had a managing director who we were able to work alongside with that project. That was very much a real time intelligence project delivered with a very small team of developers and also delivered fully remotely as well. So with those constraints and variables, it's very much a proud moment for me and Merco as I'm sure you can imagine with that type of development environment with that newer technology as well. There were lots of experiences and obstacles to overcome as part of that delivery. Yeah, that's, yeah, the space X all of the interesting. Yeah, you often say something like enterprise AI is where ambitious go to die. What did you mean by that? So I think especially over the course of the last couple of years with the gen AI kind of I don't know if you can wrap gen AI up in whatever you want to call it the boom, the bubble, the hype. However, you want to kind of wrap it up. So lots of organizations have gen AI ambition, but lots of them are also just tick-bock exercises where approve of concept or proof of value never actually leaves the sandbox and just ends up cause costing a lot of money without actually delivering any any value. while just noting that we've seen a plethora of what I would call traditional artificial intelligence implementation so the more traditional machine learning implementations that have have gone onto the liver, high value and a pretty much very war battle tested in today's day and age. What i'm specifically referring to here is more the gen AI technologies. Now the reason that I've filled this way about it is it's not just myself, I believe MIT did a study in 2025 that suggested that only 1% of gen AI implementations actually go onto to hit production. Now there's many reasons for this. The vast majority of it comes down to actually not leading with value first, understanding what the return investment is and what the outcome you're trying to deliver is and secondly, how you're doing that in a governed and fit for a gen TKI environment. So is your data up to scratch and I'll leave that very, very vague and very broad but that's a good way to at least get started on what I mean there. I think a lot of companies struggle with this but there's one part there and they struggle because it's yeah it's cost-intensive but others investing millions. Why did they struggle if they put so many money in it? Multiple reasons I think we've had some famous stories. McDonald's is probably one of the largest, at least, social media perspective that comes to mind whereby they trialed and generative AI on their drive-through, take out kind of checkpoints and people were able to spoof these agents into being able to order thousands of nuggets for example and similar scenarios have been utilized on large organizations again their company or their public facing website chatbots where people have been able to utilize them for for free inference shall we say and being able to use their chatbots as large language models for all intents and purposes. Now at least those public facing stories come back to one point which is governance, quality acceptance testing and ensuring that the tool is for purpose against all edge cases but typically this comes back to that rush for implementation. The rush to try to deliver that gen AI tick box for boards etc rather than actually stopping to think why do we need this? Do we have the infrastructure and platform to be able to support this and what does this look like in three, six, twelve months time as the technology continues to evolve as well? And how figured your pilot tax concept in this? Oh absolutely. I mean we believe in doing or at least starting with proof of values and these are fairly small to medium sized projects which set out to prove the the kind of the thinking behind is in the title right they're set out to prove value okay so taking a business use case identifying key strategic areas and business metrics that we can prove value against, costing that out again looking at all edge cases etc and then proving this out in a small to medium size before then being able to go ahead and forecast scale for the business once you go ahead and productionize that. Now the reason that we put together this framework and methodology is because so many organizations again referring to the MIT stat earlier so many organizations, 99% of organizations in the last 24 months of so have not being able to get out of that proof of concept or pilot environment and that's exactly the framework that we've been able to use to overcome that. Did you see warning things that then AI initiative is failing? Yeah absolutely so I guess with that it's lack of trust by the business as well is it plays a big part in it? How can we ensure that what we're being told is accurate there won't be any hallucinations at all and to be honest we've actually put together an anti hallucination framework to circumnappigate this as well to actually give organizations that trust in the information that they're being told by the large language model is being accurate and then making this very verifiable all the way down to that minute row of data in your lake house or data warehouse environment as well so these are some of the areas that we've been able to highlight that really stop organizations being able to productionize that value and there's lots of other areas again and strategically we've been able to reverse engineer this and be able to lead with a framework that actually enables organizations to be able to take small steps in a quick period of time to showcase value against needed business use cases and then be able to have a proven route to production governed and secure GNI in their environment on their data hallucination free. It's technology usually a problem or something else and really no combination and so generally some of it's down to culture and technology lots of organizations to be blunt don't have this capability internally which is why they look to a third party like ourselves to be able to come in not only just implement this technology but to also to take their team on this journey so on its data we actually have something called the onix Academy where by our clients teams are trained on these technologies up skill to be able to then be a center of excellence internally and to go on and be champions of these technologies and be able to go and train others internally as well and that's something that we're quite proud of. Outside of that we've seen organizations rush towards data maturity for anybody that's been involved in the data space, data quality, data governance etc have all been very tiring conversations in hard-worn battles with boards and heads of over the past few years. Now it's one of the first items on any agenda for these types of implementation so that just shows you where data culture is gone or is led to at least within the last five years or so and you're also really famous for all your Microsoft fabric topic. Why has Microsoft fabric become such an important platform? What a platform to begin with, what a concept so could us to Saty and Adela and the whole team involved in Microsoft fabric as a platform first and foremost and let's be brutally honest it's not without scrutiny as any new bleeding edge technology and forward-thinking concept that we're not going to get everything right day day zero but it's an ongoing journey. Now the great point about Microsoft fabric for organizations, well there's a couple of great points actually so let me expand on this a little bit. The first great point is it's a single unified solution of what was previously disparate technology so you're now bringing your pipelines, your notebooks, your data science, your visualization, your semantic modeling, etc. Now your agentech framework, real-time intelligence and even now application development with fabric apps and rafin all together into a single environment with one single line item for your IT team and your infrastructure team on your monthly bill which is a huge a huge win. There's not only cuts down on complexity in being able to spin up these environments and time to make all of these different components talk to each other and but also simplifies billing. Now what that also brings to the forefront typically in a data and artificial intelligence engineering environment you have people that have varied skill sets so one way to look at this previously was the t-SQL developer, the Python developer and a data scientist okay each of those potentially using different languages or different scripts so the t-SQL developer is using t-SQL, the Python developer is using Python and a data scientist potentially using r or Python as well then you have the citizen developer who typically is an O-code more low-code developer. Now what fabric really did fantastically well is introduce the parquet file format and one lake which is really enabled each of these different personas to be able to come to the same table as I like to call it and all be able to share the data regardless of what play or cutlery of choice that they would like to use and that is a fantastic unlock shall we say across various skill sets within an enterprise organization. Yeah what I've found really interesting is that's the fabric apps because a lot of people say okay excellent because now we have far more BI and now a lot of people say power BI of that because we have fabric apps what is this fabric apps and villains to really kill power BI and X. Who knows is probably the easiest way to look at it but let's look at what it actually enables as opposed to potentially looking at what the what the future looks like so the fabric apps and the rafian technologies as support it pretty much brings the application layer into into fabric so typically when you had your app devs your web devs etc they'd be using as your technologies. Now they're able to do this given there are a couple of limitations the fact that it is to improve you we won't go into those but there's plenty of documentation available on what they are but the goal here is to bring the application layer into fabric and importantly be able to interact with the rest of the fabric environment so your semantic models for example be able to be able to process thanks queries etc etc. Now launch members of the data analyst and visualization community as you mentioned Merco have absolutely looked at this from a power BI perspective how can we spin up web based apps now and represent data visualizations that enable us to do everything that we couldn't do previously with the ceiling of power BI and J Park the fellow MVP probably comes to mind as one of the leaders at the forefront of this AI driven fabric apps implementation deployment. Now for me personally just to get on to will this remove power BI in the future I will double down on the fact that who knows potentially potentially not. Now for me one area where I'm absolutely certain where it won't be removed which is a power BI object or at least it was natively is the semantic layer the semantic model the tabular engine underneath power BI that just becomes a more important component and I mentioned this on another panel session very recently that the semantic model was finally becoming the promo queen shall we say prom evening and I can only see that getting more integrated as we move forward. So it's a little bit a mix of of platforms like either power, power apps and tabular edit runs or how it would. Yeah so I think it's a combination right so if you think down to if you were a software engineer and you were building applications directly with your technology no JS react typescript etc Python so on and so forth everything that you've been able to do previously in those environments you're now able to do directly within fabric so you're absolutely right this can become a replacement for the likes of power apps for example and it really opens the lid on the capabilities of what you're able to now do within within fabric it's a huge walking to a new generation of capabilities not just for data analysts and engineers but also for software engineers now. Awesome yeah I have to I have to look a little bit more in there. Did you think or did you see misconceptions organization have what when they look at fabric or did you something see off? Yeah absolutely so fabric as I've mentioned and pretty much wax lyrically about a little bit is a fantastic platform it's especially a fantastic platform for Microsoft native enterprises as well. Now where that we have seen reservations is against let's say more mature offerings in the market and more cemented offerings in the market the likes of Databricks and snowflake that have had readily available platforms for a lot longer in regards to time. Now we have to remember that fabric it's not just the bringing together of components these are already mature components from an Azure infrastructure perspective they're now being made available in a single package that can be utilized across the organization so with that comes some teaving issues and Microsoft have acted really quickly and for those that that where they have been but this is very much a journey of hardening of a platform that has seen fantastic enhancements over the course of the last couple of years and as we've seen in recent partner reports etc has become an industry leader in a very short space of time. Yeah I think a lot of companies have spent a lot a lot of money for for building their traditional data platforms I don't know in SQL or something when should companies think about fabric is the right solution for them? I think whenever you're trialing out a new proof of concept there's probably a good way to look at it so the the ease of fabric is how easy is to get started with you're able to go ahead sign in spin up a capacity sizing so let's just say a capacity for those that don't know is the compute made available for you and this is sized up accordingly in different tiers okay so with that in mind you can go ahead to to the fabric you can sign in and you can spin up a capacity as low as an F2 to begin with okay so for a moderately small charge you then have access to all of those components that I've previously mentioned okay so this means even if you have some small excel workloads and processes if you have a report that's a legacy report let's say something like crystal reporting for example or or SAP some legacy SAP objects as well this is a great time to go through that proof of value okay see where you can have efficiencies typically in the processing of the data and also being able to make this available from a single point of truth to other areas of the organization as well so that would be my recommendation if it's something that you're going on a journey of increasing the size of data in your organization then start small see where fabric is efficient and and drives value and see where it might not fit your current work processes and then take an educated step forward based on the outputs of that now if you are already a fully fledged organization and you're using another cloud provider let's just insert any cloud providers names there then one of the fantastic areas of fabric is how well they play with other cloud providers now whether this is the utilization of a technology called mirroring or utilizing shortcuts which enables you to effectively create a virtual desktop shortcut to another cloud provider and utilize that data within your fabric environment it's a great opportunity to be able to utilize fabric for some of those workloads where you wouldn't have previously bought it possible and then bring it into a native environment where everybody in your organization regardless of their technical ability can go and start to utilize and drive value with data and artificial intelligence. When we talk about fabric we most talk about yeah I say the technology stuff but is it also bring an organizational change? Yeah I believe so I think that at least in my conversations with lots of enterprise organizations they're now interested in the ability to do cross-domain charging for example so historically lots of organizations have had warehouses or lake houses where they haven't been able to do the traditional finops and split out the charging of the compute etc for various departments now these capabilities become available within fabric where you can start to have different domains you can have your marketing domain you could have your finance domain your sales etc and they can all get charge back which brings a different area or a different concept to organizations in the fact that sometimes it actually increases what they're able to do because each of those domains has their own budget set aside for data initiatives and artificial intelligence initiatives and they can kind of virtually pull this together to bring their environment forward and Merca we also released a tool called FabOps which does this at scale so it's a governance and always on kind of command center or lighthouse overview of your whole fabric estate regardless of how many capacities you have which further enhance the ability to be able to become really data driven and not have to rely so much on your security and governance teams yeah I like to talk about governance but one question before a lot of companies say okay last year's we will become data driven and yeah start was fabric and now the company say we are we will be AI driven companies what what role does fabric play in in an AI first world oh you just hit it there on the head and you've taken the words out of my mouth really fabric in my opinion is becoming an AI first platform Microsoft has done a fantastic job making data agents available the integration of co-pilot MCP servers increasing the API and the rest API access across fabric as well the command line tools are amazing as well I would say Microsoft are doing a great job of preparing fabric to become a leading AI native platform if it isn't one already just back to your former point as well you're absolutely right lots of organizations discuss being data driven they discuss being AI driven I still see organizations I still speak with organizations across the globe in today's day and age they don't have a data strategy let alone an artificial intelligence strategy as well so there are steps to be taken to be able to successfully implement these technologies and they're proven paths we just don't see a lot of organizations either A being aware of those paths or B having the time to actually go and explore those paths down to down to board pressures etc or they are aware of them but they just can't act quickly enough as quickly as the technology is in improving this awesome I think what one topic or my personal problems when I work with companies and we work with fabric is that the companies often overlink the metadata topic why is it so important topic and what role do is Microsoft PueView play here and sorry can you just repeat the first bit which topic in particular yeah I see a lot of companies struggle with their metadata or they don't have metadata why is this so often overlooked and how can Microsoft PueView help here yeah absolutely so great question so organizations really don't understand and whether this is from a culture perspective what metadata means across an organization and how to be able to utilize it okay it's a fairly new concept especially as organization step into this data and AI world that I kind of call the era of intelligence okay now with that in mind again you didn't have to become very strategic in regards to how you not only catalog the metadata but you also ensure that it's regularly updated you have a steward and it looks after that and then you make this available sometimes just a just a small audience is within an organization but you ensure that those audiences that need access to this data to this metadata have access to it now you're absolutely right Microsoft introduced PueView and specifically for this reason and it's a fantastic tool and to be able to go and take all of your metadata and master data management quality and governance and wrap it up again into a single layer which really plays well with other tools in the Microsoft ecosystem like fabric now what we do tend to find is that some organizations aren't quite ready for the scale are the tool like like PueView and this is where something I mentioned before something like fab ops steps in as being that all encompassing data quality and governance tool that helps organizations at that more small to medium layer be able to still get the benefits of becoming metadata driven tracking data lineage across your organization so understanding where that data metric or data point in your report actually tracks back to in your source system and the calculations that are taking part and also being able to track any changes to that underlying data as well and something that's become even more prevalent in the last few years as well is how do you actually track who has access to that data is the access to that data correct and when did that change? I think another important topic is the the semantic models especially yeah in data for data projects how the enterprises profit when they will start with a high when they have good semantic models? Oh it's absolutely as I mentioned earlier it's becoming probably in my opinion one of the highest priority objects within your data environment to ensure that you have correct okay now to think about this this is where you hold all of your let's just talk about traditional kimbal methodology this is where you hold your traditional star schema so your fact tables your dimension tables and but also most importantly your metrics or your measures and any context around this so this becomes the feeding ground for your for your agentech agents to be able to understand your business logic and your data relationships semantic model the context or descriptions that you provide alongside that data and also be able to utilize those calculations as well now it's worthwhile noting the Microsoft have also recently gone into GA with fabric ontologies and fabric IQ as well which also helps support this narrative as well when sometimes don't always have to rely on your semantic layer as well so now within fabric you have many roots to actually being able to achieve this intelligence layer for your agents to work on top of? Yeah well what I also often see is when I work with companies especially in the in the data field they they really like to have fast the first report in power BI so that's the goal and if I talk about governance it's often we fix that later but you think that's works? Never it never works and so at least in the approach that we take with organizations it's about how you deliver that value quickly and we've had luck I mentioned generally our proof of value approach is anything as small as four to twelve weeks to actually having governed the genetic AI reporting directly on a client's data anti hallucination free and correct within one percent of tolerance as well now how do you do that with the constraints that you've just mentioned? Okay organizations want to see that end product quickly and like you've mentioned they don't care too much about the governance aspects or at least not as a phase one deliverable okay is typically typically how we do this is to bake in governance as part of the whole development life cycle so how do we get to an end working goal in the quickest possible way? So the organization can start testing and they can start providing feedback and they have something tangible in front of them whilst in parallel we are still posing the governance questions and building that a governed environment alongside that so it's definitely a tight walk or a tight rope should I say to walk but typically the approach we've used with the on-expring work has enabled us to be able to deliver both. Yeah what do good governance actually look like from your prospector? It's a combination of things Mercone to be honest that's probably a whole nother and podcast session in itself so I'll try to keep it relatively relatively small so we look at this from a security perspective perspective from a permissions perspective really understanding where the data comes from any security risks of that data is it PII data for example how much of it is sensitive is the data shareable across an organization if it's not who should have access to it who then oversees this process over time when do we have periodic checks to ensure that this governance is in place what layers do we need to implement this governance in is it just in the warehouse is it also through object level security, row level security, accesses to workspaces etc so there's multiple layers to overcome from that perspective so I guess to kind of try to summarize that you have the data culture layer is the organization geared up to be able to support governance and do they understand their data who own so you have their ownership and responsibility layer and then you have the technical implementation layer as well where you look across that whole architecture and estate and define those governance points and then how you manage and maintain these standards over time so how you track and how you monitor and ensure this observable and readily available to the organization as well yeah I think about companies like they provided governance frameworks and maturity models what did you think about those absolutely I think that the closer we get to standardization in the in the future is is going to be absolutely ideal because we typically have like you've just mentioned various different data governance standards, I'm sure we say and some of these are geographically based as well some of these are actually industry and domain based and some of these are actually just from organizations themselves so it would be good in the future to have a standardized framework but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the fact that they are using a framework is typically the first point of getting towards a win as opposed to not having any framework implementation at all and yeah when we talk about governance especially in fabric you have built fab offs so can you a little bit explain what problems it's off yeah absolutely so for those the people like myself and like organizations that we work with that have worked in power BI and now fabric and the joy of these tools is you're absolutely able to get up and running very quickly a pace and start to deliver value but it also becomes a bit of a sprawl okay typically when I speak to IT admins or fabric admins it's very difficult for them to understand what users are doing over in marketing how they're building their semantic models and reports is that in line with standards set in finance etc and then as you add multiple capacities to this multiple semantic models reports which then scale into the hundreds and thousands it becomes this the behalf of that is very difficult to be able to observe understand and maintain and most importantly to govern and this is absolutely what fab ops does it's that always on kind of Sentinel in your environment that really is ensuring that everything adheres the best practice standards it checks to see if there's any outages in your environment it delivers automated executive quarterly reports monthly managerial reports and daily snapshots every area that you would like tracked and alerting and performance based guidelines on is also covered in there and also from a costing perspective as well how much did my lake house cost me this month how much did marketing's lake house cost them this month so so forth and all in a single pain of glass in a single platform so it's also fine also I think it's also a topic yeah it's really interesting because a lot of people are asking about value but but but I think when I think I heard often from from problems so a lot of companies they built their stacks on Microsoft they say they cannot use fabric because we cannot different the different cost of different yeah of our clients that running on the fabric so so can can fab ops also help here yeah absolutely so we actually give you the option within fab ops to be able to to tag different workloads and different objects and then attribute them to either a different client or a different department as well and be able to track the costs against those and so for example at the end of a month you can have the compute bill for your finance team you can have the compute bill for your marketing team or if you're doing this by client a client b client c and you can also have those compute bills readily available as well so you're absolutely correct and fab fab ops also shifts with that pin ops model to it which allows you to attribute that spend yeah that does does really cool because like off-road companies have have this this problem and they stayed and not on fabric um what what did you see which governance matrix more yeah matters most yeah so I guess just to go back to the to the to the previous point one moment just for listeners out there so um for those of you that are interested in fab ops it is freely available directly within Microsoft fabric if you go to the workloads tab scroll down until you see fab ops and you hit um uh install you can free try all fab ops for for seven days and automatically get a score of your environment as well so I would recommend you all go ahead um and do that and then morko i hate giving this answer um uh it's it's typically the consulting answer but which framework to use um it depends and it depends on so many it's the easiest way for me to answer this question is for you to work with us on x data and to utilize our data governance framework and allow us to support you in building out one of the works for your organization um but there are so many different frameworks that fit different um implementations industries and also and geographies as well um I think another problem I often see it's company states starts with good data quality but yeah time over time uh yeah it's still getting better uh how do you monitor data quality uh constantly oh absolutely and again I work with organizations all of the time um that that don't have the observability in in place especially across their data pipelines their ingestion processes etc where you're just starting to track so um and you can have different quality I can't go into details in regards to what quality looks like because it's very much dependent on that organization it could be um um um the nulls being introduced is a quality is a quality check it could be a range um from from an integer value um let's say you shouldn't have any integers within this this uh data set that go above 1000 for example so first and foremost it's about defining um what quality looks like for that data the tolerance that you're that you're happy to observe and then how do you not only track that but how do you then display back to the organization what good looks like and as you've mentioned how do we then handle any anomalies to those rules so for example um typically in our implementations we will quarantine any data that doesn't fit within within tolerance it means that we don't stop the load of the data um but we post those anomalies into a quarantined environment to be checked manually by a human in the loop and then if they need to be reprocessed then then they can be but again this is a this is a dedicated framework and a pattern for how to achieve this in an organization the actual rules themselves um really come from working alongside the organization and the data sets that they're working with. It's interesting um I think um when when you look a little bit in the future what did you plan with with the fab ops because there's coming something new features? Yeah absolutely so we're always consistently working with organizations um that are at the forefront of utilizing fabric at a high level and the pain points that they currently have with with the platform. Now obviously um we're in the era of intelligence and an agentic approaches so we we do utilize this within fab ops one of the great ways we actually do this is be able to um have an agent that's available to you in fab ops which is contextually driven to your data to be able to ask questions about the Microsoft technologies and how they can support you as an organization moving forward. So for our example we're good um example of this is direct lake lots of organizations don't use direct lake they don't understand it um and they they're not sure what the value of being able to implement this will have for them. Well directly within fab ops you can ask that um against your data and be shown um how uh to implement it why you would implement it and also the expected value back um that you can get from for that implementation. Now our roadmap is quite long um we work we're working on integration um directly with purview as well uh which um is exciting uh moving forward and we are getting a lot of requests for actually agents being able to take right actions. Now there's lots of data governance um alongside that to look at um but it's nothing it's another exciting uh route forward. So our goal with fab ops is for it to be the the default tool of observability across your whole fabric estate to be able to at a glance be able to understand how you're performing from a security a governance a performance and a cost perspective and also to be able to ensure the best practice is being adhered to um across your organization so one way to look at this is are my marketing team and i've been picking on marketing quite a lot today so i apologize are my marketing team using that best practice for all of their calculations um are they are they adhering to our reports standardizations and logo placements etc you can now do all of that in an automated fashion um across your whole estate. Yeah it's okay to talk about marketing i came from the marketing part and uh yeah it's the people they they uh do the most cartics cause they're at the most special visitors or on so on but uh wait what what does govant um govant production really mean from your perspective. Yeah so i guess in today's day and age with data being more prevalent um and i guess with large language models and gen ai being where it is organizations are a lot more open now to threats um than they ever have been before computer literacy is it is all time high um inference and all time high the availability of data and computer and all time high so all of this comes together to really put in place a melting pot which allows organizations like us to support organizations to drive value um but also it means the organizations become more open to external bad actors but also internal bad actors as well so starting with that governed first approach um ensuring that you have protection not only externally but internally with what is quickly becoming your most valuable asset which is your data um is a key component to get right day one. And uh what one i also found interesting it's uh i think it's more four or three years or so and uh Microsoft introduced uh the co-pilot AI in in fabric and yeah it looks so good at uh at uh yeah the demo and and we try it and it's only say okay you have to done this this this this so i think here it was nearly uh yeah a little bit like google insights uh a fabric uh so i don't have to open another browser but i'm not really so angry with it now what what will you say what a doos co-pilot or i play uh what role does it play now in Microsoft fabric yeah absolutely so i think that co-pilot and just general AI are probably two separate two separate things um personally so i think that what co-pilot does is it gives you that introduction um to generate it AI technologies within your fabric environment to make processes quicker and smoother in a chat interface now the way i think about it is like when we first got intelligence and the and the use of red gate tools and and in the toolbell right it just made my process of development a lot quicker uh by being able to tab or use shortcuts and it's very similar to co-pilot it's a lot quicker by me being able to guide co-pilot and it's very much that introductory piece right now then there's a journey to go on because utilizing let's call it um more intelligent AI so a foundry implementation for example whereby you can start to get a bit more agentic or utilizing vs code um with a large language model of your choice as a frontier model would potentially open up to you alongside mcp servers and apis etc much more capabilities than you currently have with co-pilot in the same way the extending intelligence or your red gate toolkit um to its highest level would again open up more opportunities to you as well so i think co-pilot is a great starting point um and it's already been able to unlock a lot of more efficient processes for organizations to at least get started um but realistically where we start to see a lot of value is with intelligent solutions using foundry um that then orchestrate multiple agents alongside business processes did you think um fabric can become i don't know uh uh beburetik or something for for a large language models sorry can it become a i missed up i'm sorry okay can it be a main source for for large language models um so i guess i believe that foundry will become or it already is um the main source for large language models the microsoft team do a great job of being able to make new releases available on on day zero of all of the the frontier models which is the no small task so great work by them what i believe foundry um will become will be the data late the data in the context layer for all of those large language and even small language models as well um to go and feast on uh if i go back to that table and and in a service analogy um fabric really becomes the table and the plates for the feast to be um and the food in in this extent for everybody to come and feast on whether that's humans or whether that's agents yeah interesting i think this will be uh amazing amazing uh future when when all all work together i think also uh i i i think a i foundry it's it's the best uh uh product from from michael soft i i don't like the ko pa la studio and all the other things so i think that's the best i like and yeah i think uh yeah it will become really really interesting um when when we look a little bit about yeah i say business value leadership why why do executives often lose confidence in in AI and data programs because of the time to value um we i've cited some uh some stats at the beginning of of of the podcast and i can there's lots of stacks there's lots of stats available on the likes of mckinsey etc um AI and data initiatives and they used to be called business intelligence or bi initiatives um have always been very costly very timely to get to value and particularly with with AI or gen AI and today's day and age they actually don't get to value 99% of the time so executives are right to be fearful of lots of capital being wasted for no output and this exactly why we build the onick's methodology and and framework alongside this um we absolutely ensure that the data being presented back by the gen AI is accurate it's um hallucination free which is audited and provable um we assess business um metrics and build the use case against the metrics that we're actually going to increase or decrease depending on what type of metrics they are and we prove this out in as little as 12 weeks which we're doing alongside industry leading organizations um across the globe um today so with this type of approach it's very difficult to get to that um 99% of of projects not achieving um production we're we're pretty much closer to the opposite where the vast majority of our of our projects do achieve productionization um and do go on to um to drive value within an organization as well so that's typically what we've seen in my experience in how we've been able to circumnavigate it for organization. So uh how shall company think about AI harness? And so I think we are very much governed um by what's available on the market we typically orchestrate at least um our gen AI implementations with Foundry when we actually utilize gen AI ourselves typically we're dependent on the harnesses of the organization whether that's codex, uh whether it's Claude code etc um each have their benefits but I think that that's now becoming the dominant playground um the vast majority of frontier models and now a similar capability and we're starting to see this um even with some of the um the the smaller player should we say the likes of um deep-seek the the stilling models and still being able to compete with the the frontier models again that could be a whole podcast episode in itself um in the complexities and the nuances of that um but now it becomes more apparent um the capabilities of the harness and for me and for up to currently leading that race. Did you think in the future we we need the longer data engineers and data analysts or will it uh completely uh replace by by AI and when they uh will survive what how will these will change? Absolutely we will continue to need them so uh give you an example of this Merco we are implementing for organizations what we call autonomous swarms of data engineers and software engineers okay the technology is called um onnix kiln and anybody interested please feel free to reach out to me okay now what this technology does is exactly what you've just mentioned um it enables you to spin up a team of data engineers it was specializing in notebooks like houses etc and having a principal developer that sits above them uh improves their work and it all flows through through devops and all of your um common patterns in in development and then you have a human in the loop um that finally goes ahead to approve the work and manages those agents and that's exactly the point that i was getting to okay um what won't happen in my opinion is that these personas and roles will be replaced by agents they will become um hyper enabled by them okay now for myself um previously being a developer still being very technical and and having built up onnix data um i was getting quite bored of development five six years ago um what this is enabled me to do with the new wave of gen AI is really get excited again about how i develop okay um what we're seeing when i speak to development teams is it now actually being able to achieve a huge amount more uh value and they're actually working harder than they ever have been previously even being assisted um by um by these agents and the reason for that is because they're able to deliver so much more there's always been a huge backlog organizations are now seeing the art of the possible um art of the possible and so the workload is increasing now because you have this enabled team of developers that are supporting you and to become more efficient the workload increases um so we continue to need people in those roles with their expertise to oversee that development yeah also yeah oh we're running a little bit off time so uh i have a quick fire out so you i uh ask you a short question and you say what what can you say in your mind to pass absolutely okay uh power BI or fabric apps currently power BI coffee uh energy drink or tea uh through uh audits uh definitely coffee oh it's interesting i think you're a little bit getting new that um uh uh co-pilot or traditional BI co-pilot uh how do bellings uh governments and uh innovation with the correct approach and a framework and methodology that enables both to happen at the same time uh data lake or raros data lake what's your favorite Microsoft product good question let's go with fabric okay when uh uh satya nidalya comes on say hey leon garden i give you all the money and resources you need uh with feature will you develop a technology that creates world peace is there one book everyone should read uh yes if it was only one book then i would suggest um for those leading an organization profit first um how important are a community oh um massively important i spent a lot of time building communities so um one of the highest priorities and what's the one school every i tea professional short learn now how to learn um how to continue to learn new technologies uh that's the key skill for me what's the best british dish oh british dish oh um let's just go for tea and crampits let's be traditional um yeah so um thank you for for staying here with me so so my closing question is what's next for annex data continuing to support clients to deliver value on their journey with data and AI technology specifically in the Microsoft realm is such an exciting time to be involved in in the ecosystem there's so much value and to be driven and that's really where we see ourselves growing yeah then leon thank you so much for joining me today it was uh yeah incredible insightful conversation about yeah one of the biggest challenge uh facing organizations today not building the AI demo but delivery AI systems that actually creates yeah business value yeah we explore Microsoft fabric, QVU governance, semantic models, AI agents, co-pilot, the pilot talks and yeah why production ready AI is uh about yeah much more about technology yeah so if you're planning a Microsoft development holding enterprise AI solution also on so all the list not showed with it uh leon gordon on on linked in his other channel and yeah especially uh showed also look at at the onyx data website yeah so thank you for being here and uh expand it nearly one hour with me my pleasure thanks you so much for having me Marco it's been an interesting pleasure Thank you, bye, bye. 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