AI-First UX for Microsoft Power Platform with Tchesco Ayih [MVP-MCT]

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Yeah, welcome back to the M365 podcast.

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Welcome, welcome.

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Today we are joining by someone who has dedicated his career to helping people

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building better business applications, not by writing thousands of codes of

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life, line of codes, but by empowering organizations through the Microsoft Power

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Platform.

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Our guest today is Jessica A.

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A Microsoft MVP, Microsoft Certificate Trainer, International Speaker, mentor and

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passionate community leader.

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There's also specialized in power apps, power, made data, power pages and

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co-pilot studio, where the particular focus on grading beautiful user,

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centric applications that people actually enjoy to using.

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His work, combing its local development, modern new expandables and

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artificial intelligence to help business deliver solutions faster while keeping

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user at the center of every design decision.

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Also today, conversion, we explore how AI is changing application development,

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why good design matters just much more than functionality.

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The future of local lessons learned from the community and advice for

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anyone wanting to build next generation of business application.

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So grab your favorite brewed, sit back and enjoy this conversion with

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Casco.

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Welcome to the show.

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Hi, thank you very much and good afternoon, good morning everyone.

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Thank you for being here, for people who don't know you actually.

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Who are you and how was your way into the Microsoft ecosystem?

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Okay, thank you very much, Mike.

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Two, like you said already my name is Jessica I and I love designing beautiful apps

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in for canvas or whatever it is I find myself.

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I started as a normal developer and then just learning along online

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Microsoft education and those things.

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So I got into a, a genre 100 and then and started pushing online

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and I got certified to this is a new technology I'm just learning.

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I'm not too much fun of the cloud, but it's fun.

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So there is this component that I talked to me and like, okay, we see you are in

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dev and you like you, I would like to introduce you to a tool called Power Platform.

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Like, okay, do you code over there?

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They say no, all right, let me see how it works.

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So that's why I venture into the Microsoft ecosystem because I never, I never try anything

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of fits of sort before.

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But the first year was amazing was full of learning and then from there,

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the curiosity always pushing to do better because when I was at the

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University of Canvas and Canvas was not that easy to design and I want to be

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beautiful application.

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So I put all my effort into that and it pays a lot and today I traveled a lot

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of trying to teach people and talk about all this thing and try to empower

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people to use these tools in their activities and not enterprise.

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Yeah, you get honored for your work with the Microsoft MDP award and you also

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Microsoft certified trainer.

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Can you tell a little bit how do you achieve this goal or this, yeah, this

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amazing certificate?

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Okay, thank you.

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So with the MDP, when I started the first year in my, in the company, it was a

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bit tough for me.

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So I was trying to learn and then when I learned I go online and, you know,

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the amazing Rizad Durani and then they heard that people are used to watch

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the art tutorial all the time and it inspired me a lot and I joined a session

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and with the Kenyan community and then the guy was doing the demo.

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He was struggling and I was like, hey, do this and then let's see.

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So he tried it and he worked and somebody in the meeting came up to me like,

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ah, are you an expert?

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I said, I'm new to just a year, but I love experiencing a lot of that.

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So I, I was like, okay, why do you have people on the community where people

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post for question and those then?

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So I started the Microsoft community page and then everybody that post

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questions on parapses, parotomies, I go and try to solve and then help over

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there and then the community came back to me like, okay, now you have a good

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experience in this field.

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Can you give a technical session?

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I say, why not?

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Then I start from there giving some technical session and then the Microsoft

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community in Kenyan actually boost my my my presence a lot by helping me and

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later the nominates me to the MVP level.

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So my task was to help the Microsoft student ambassadors in Africa.

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So let's say all the friends speaking my Microsoft student ambassadors to be

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together and then try to do things together.

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So that was the goal at the end of my, when they, when they try to eliminate me

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as an MVP, switch a date and then we started a journey with those team and

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then we are boosting them later.

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The need came to me to be Microsoft certified by another NDP in Ghana who

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was suggesting to me that your expertise at this point, you need to know how

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to handle training and then on the professional way, on the Microsoft way.

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And I was like, okay, cool, no problem.

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How does it go?

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Then you just show me, okay, we need to be on MCT and this is how it goes.

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So, okay, cool.

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Let's jump into it.

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So then I did in a past all the tests that was required, fast all the,

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the functional skills that was there required by Microsoft.

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And then yeah, we had today, I'm an NCT as we are joining the

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great community of leaders who are training and then helping others in the

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community, whatever it's kind.

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Yeah, that's, that's.

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Yeah, and another topic you are famous for is its UX.

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What, yeah, why do you think this topic is so important, especially for business?

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Apps.

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Okay, great.

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So when you see in Canvas or in mother living,

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the people that design it are just way going.

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You don't, you don't have a full team of UI us developers that need to stretch

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at the whole app before it goes live.

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So it just let's say, since it's a local tool, everybody try to design.

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Now everybody design it and it just through it all the, and you realize that the UI is

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totally not at its, at the, at the point, the US is completely forgotten.

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And then the processes are every app are perfectly well, but just that dark,

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they are missing and I really don't know, even though it's a local system,

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we need to have the mindset of how to leverage the UI UX into this design and

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not just design or because there is a process to automate.

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And that is where I started, I started to get focus more on and help beatify the

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app and help the UI, how the US, how the process should go and also know that they

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order people, they don't normally, that don't use their eye to read an application,

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but I don't have readers in the browser and we need to also make sure it's

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help them as well.

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We don't just build it up for people in organization ignoring the disability

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people that cannot access the app directly.

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The way we do, we do with the UI.

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And that is what come with the UI and the US all together combined to make sure

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the apps that we build are all aligned and help everybody in the organization level.

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Awesome.

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And what do you think do too many developers focus on features first?

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And why should you or should they start first with user experience?

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I don't know, like a map or a plan.

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Because sorry, come and give you the question.

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Yeah, yeah.

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If I think a lot of developers, when they, when they start a project or they're

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thinking about features first, why and how should they, we thinking especially

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to get the user a better user experience?

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How can, can they start, especially with this change in their mind?

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Or, yeah.

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Okay. All right.

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So that's why in normal, um, um, uh, development, when you are developing in a normal

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proc, you need a UI, US design, first, well approved before the developer is

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self go into the deep coding.

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When you come to, um, our ecosystem or power platform or canvas, um,

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once we jump you start thinking of the features, okay, we need to have these.

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You need to have that forgetting the main approach of how they absolutely

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look like. Now, when you are done, you realize that there are things that are scattered

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around the buttons, yeah, the gallery is yeah.

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And but as long as the process works, we, we don't focus on that, which is totally

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not the way it's supposed to be, um, as a part of some developer, we need to

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first of all know that's how the UI should go.

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Even if the UI is not that interesting, it's power up.

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You need to have it in mind.

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What are we designing?

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And is here finance up?

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How should we be?

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And then, um, is he a fleet?

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Uh, management system, how should we go?

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How would the UI go?

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When you start with the UI, then you have your, your database structured already

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back on fitting that UI, you have your features already that, that, that can fit

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in that UI.

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But only when you start with the features, we realize that they are things scattered

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all across.

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And you don't know which one should go to the next screen, which one should be at

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its first page and all like that.

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So the best way or the best approach on what's me, I do, I start with a UI screen

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fully designed, um, then I integrate my database and then try to add the

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features that are needed one by one and also making sure that the UI, all, all

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the US also follow along.

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And that's that, but always starting with the, the UI, US first before adding the

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nest of the features that are needed all along the page.

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What, from your perspective, what, what makes, I say, a business application,

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yeah, say enjoyable to use.

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Right.

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So before I answer that, um, one of my finance director used to tell us that,

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look at when you're building the app for the customer, make sure the app

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look beautiful because once it's beautiful, it's a track the, the end user

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first before you start looking at, okay, why is this button not working?

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So my face approach is let the app be catching the person face, let the UI be

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very beautiful.

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It's not, it's not like we are building an app for a banking system whereby

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is internal people are just putting banking details and then did that thing

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from someone's account.

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No, this one is user, user facing and the app need to, to, to, to, I tried

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the user so that every time you take the app, you want to do something, if

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feel you're using something, you get it.

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So me my approach is the UI should stand first, the UI should stand in the app.

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Yeah, that is me my approach.

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Me as time on the ground and I always stand on that UI to impress, let's

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it impress the ones is it press if there is any failure in the app, at

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least the UI is standing, it can convince already that we are the job can be done.

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Yeah, a lot of people say or app developers say mobile at first,

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is this the also an important topic in business apps?

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In business that no, is not a case in business app, it depends on the process

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that we are trying to automate it.

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So if it's an app that requires people on the field, then you go to mobile,

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but you know, if, when it is a motor driven app, it doesn't matter because

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it can easily be responsible according across all screen size.

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But when it comes to canvas, that's what you have to say, it like it a mobile or

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desktop app because mobile, you know, help with some features, then

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responsiveness in canvas is very, very, very difficult to achieve.

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So it require more time.

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So that's why when you are starting a project in canvas, you first of all need

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to add the client what would be the purpose of this process?

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Are the users on field or are the office and when they are office seated,

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there's only for it to be on mobile.

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It just be desktop, the open street on the, on the desktop and then it goes.

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Now if it is a mobile, it is a free management.

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If you maybe is a delivery system that goes with the company, then you can be on

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mobile and get it and have an admin access that is on a desktop.

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But I don't complicate my system,

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building them responsive when it comes to canvas app. I make sure I separate it.

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Mobile is mobile, desktop at desktop, but normal, normal development,

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those design are pretty easy.

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So you can do that, but in canvas is very difficult.

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So I don't encourage that and I don't advise to go on a responsive or

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choosing mobile while people using the app will be at the office.

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And do you create a person or a user journey before you start with application?

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Yeah, definitely. You always go that way.

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And yeah, what road do you play?

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Use a feedback before building.

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Okay. So, first of all, once I hear the process, once I get I know at once,

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what you are, what you're looking for over here.

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But most of the time, the company I was working for was a Microsoft partner.

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So they are a standard client.

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So when it starts to ask too much question, they are not in a way of some,

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some setting question.

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But me, if my years of experience, I know most of the question already that I can

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easily ask to not make the client's board.

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So by targeting those points, I already know my user story and then I know

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where to go with it.

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And how much psychologic or how much psychological goes into application design?

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No, a lot, a lot, a lot because like I said, you need to impress with the UI.

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So we need to think like the user.

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So there's a lot psychological thing that come into it.

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There's a lot of struggles in there.

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And and a lot of people say they make a, I don't know, a beautiful,

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but what's only design is not usability.

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How did you balance a beautiful design to, yeah, to a good user, user experience?

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OK, so once you finish your up, one of the dilemma and days that you cannot

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go to every user and and make sure you, you satisfy them.

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Somebody would like the button to be at position at another, another place for him.

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Somebody would like the button to be bigger at this point.

234
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So we, we combine the US,

235
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I recall policies to create the app.

236
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So now one of the app is done.

237
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What you do is wait for an ass, maybe an ass three months,

238
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this month to see the people using the app and then now get the feedback.

239
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,640
OK, what are your issues with the app?

240
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,320
The US, how do you think about it?

241
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,320
Then from then we got all those info and then now we need to, OK,

242
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,440
you can adjust the screen to this particular level.

243
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,800
By the beginning, you don't know how the users will feel and then you cannot

244
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directly go to them.

245
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,440
They need to know what the app does and how to use it before.

246
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,440
So I ship the app to the users waiting for another feedback for the next three months.

247
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,360
And then to refine the UX to feed their design or their desire.

248
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,800
So that's all I go with it.

249
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:49,040
So is it is UX design a project or is it a process?

250
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,080
Is a process.

251
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,400
OK.

252
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:58,520
For, for, I say, for newcomers, how would you explain

253
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,920
then the power platform ecosystem?

254
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,160
OK.

255
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,040
So pretty simple.

256
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,080
The way Microsoft used to evangelize it.

257
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:12,000
It is a local tool or technology that have

258
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:19,280
enterprise personnel of people to, to, to, to make their process

259
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:27,200
quicker without any stress, not like if you need a live management system.

260
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:33,120
We need to find a developer and they can take them three months,

261
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:34,560
this month to build a footing.

262
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,320
And then it's a long process.

263
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,680
While we've the power platform, if it's a live management like this, within the week,

264
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,360
your system is ready and it's purely simple look code.

265
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:50,960
And then you have the power to make us where that is there.

266
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We've also drag and drop or we can just comment.

267
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,680
And then you have your process flow that can automate some of the leave and

268
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,600
say the leave the email that you receive act on your behalf at this.

269
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,200
I'm share point.

270
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,880
And then some S L year and then and then the power page as well,

271
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:16,280
that is like a net the price website that showcase companies data to external users

272
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:23,560
or companies partners that can login using an identity to view their specific data.

273
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:24,120
As well.

274
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,840
So you have the data verse, which is the backend.

275
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:33,120
And then which is a relational database that also does cool things over there.

276
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:38,760
And then has it on top of mood a review app and you do a marvel or thing.

277
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,480
Now all these technologies communicate to each other and app purely enterprise

278
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,560
grades usage.

279
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,840
So people who find a safe in the company in that field,

280
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,560
a normal form or a paper.

281
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Wake.

282
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,080
Maybe at a security check and cool easily just send that paper.

283
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,760
Wake into digital form and then have the data send it to share point or just use

284
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,600
canvas or mood and driven to just be something simple that to manage your date today activity while

285
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,280
using the pen, you know, so we are trying to go from the error from the from writing on paper

286
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:18,760
to digitalization and these tools in power platform are helping us achieving those kind of things.

287
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:25,200
And then yeah, basically a cover all of them and we have the connectors that

288
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:31,200
connect to this system like they are like an API in the other system when you are calling them.

289
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,240
They're like API and this kind of API are just connecting us to all the videos,

290
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,720
data source that are possible that we need into our for our system or our

291
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,320
project to continue waking.

292
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,960
Basically that is a controllable power platform.

293
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,720
Yeah.

294
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,160
And that's I don't know in the power power app.

295
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:58,400
There's a new, I don't know that's come us at model different apps and that's some new AI.

296
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,080
I don't know the name actually.

297
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:00,440
Yeah.

298
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,720
Cocoa apps.

299
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:02,920
Cocoa.

300
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:10,400
That's how how did you think are when we look back to the design things do.

301
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:18,160
Co-Apps doing a great design and usability on what is the different to the other both.

302
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,360
Yeah.

303
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,880
Building ways apps.

304
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:23,360
OK.

305
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:23,960
Good.

306
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,360
So if the code apps is like a building a full what you call it reacts up.

307
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,200
Completely.

308
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,920
We that will be pulling the data from the service.

309
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,920
So it's it's pretty cool.

310
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,640
And then it has a beautiful design layout.

311
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,920
And then if you are a pro developer, you can easily live really to build a correct or standing

312
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,320
application reacts based using these data.

313
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:58,200
What we couldn't have throughout this years when we are having come us and we're living only in our now

314
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,000
that this code apps are here.

315
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,560
They are really there to help.

316
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,200
And even with narration, we can have a standard app already that you can you can use.

317
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:16,480
But if you are pro like I said, if you are pro, you can reach in the UI that's the AI gave you completely to become a complete UI

318
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:17,960
that you create on your own.

319
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:28,360
And this one is mostly a pro development side, which require a UI develop a design fest that the developer will do.

320
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:29,200
We use.

321
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:39,600
And so that part is mostly for our recommend them mostly for pro developers because if there is a particular place that the system generates for you.

322
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,000
And you are trying to carry known that the UI, the AI is not at that level yet.

323
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:56,800
So you be struggling in creating narrating that particular place for you, but it's way perfectly but not recommended for someone who is not too much in the pro coach to use it.

324
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,200
And but if you can just if you need to stand up, then it's cool.

325
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:11,600
You can go to week, but code code apps is really helping now and it is making the change in the canvas up development.

326
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,840
Now.

327
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:23,640
And there's I think we don't know it's really really new, but there it's also called power apps component framework.

328
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,840
Have you used it and and what is it?

329
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,160
Okay.

330
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:35,160
So by first component, actually the old style of the code that we normally use in power apps.

331
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:46,480
So it's like a feature that you cannot achieve in canvas, power up or in a motor driven and then you need a code up that is purely JavaScript or react that you could.

332
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,080
And then you call into the power apps that you can just drop us a normal button.

333
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:56,120
You can create a button like that with maybe an unamished icon.

334
00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:03,240
And so so those are not the add those component that you create and then you add into the power up.

335
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:12,880
So they are great. And then they help in when there are some features that are totally out of the balls that you don't have in available for you to use.

336
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,560
Then you go and create it.

337
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:21,360
So you have most of those one in the gallery up that the power we use in the community.

338
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:26,680
And then they are template like calendar template template like printing.

339
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:36,200
So there are those are functionality that we normally don't have and people just create it over there and you can just if you don't know it, you can just use it and read the documentation.

340
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,120
And it's applied either in your canvas up or in your motor driven apps.

341
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:51,520
And another topic, I think a lot of power platform, exp or especially power apps, do it speaks about if it's data worse or what is that.

342
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,200
Data verse.

343
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:54,960
Yeah.

344
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,040
Yeah.

345
00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:06,200
So the first is actually that great backhand of the full power platform where all the data are seated and at the beginning is very great.

346
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:17,440
It's a very great tool to help building and then is a relational table compared to SharePoint because when you have a tenant, you already have a free SharePoint.

347
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:33,360
But the others on the other side, they help you with more of the relationship where you can integrate one to many many to one more or less like what you do in SharePoint whereby you have to do those relationship manual in database.

348
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:34,640
You can just easily do that.

349
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:47,840
And the Tavis is little bit faster than SharePoint or let's say 90% faster than SharePoint something that you do on SharePoint or you call SharePoint database or you three guy of flow.

350
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,840
A power to make flow from SharePoint can take sometimes 30 seconds.

351
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,480
It's in the database can actually trigger within the second at once, the trigger it.

352
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,640
So that's a different with SharePoint or what then in the service.

353
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,960
So database is really great.

354
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:12,120
And then it connects across all the the ecosystem or power platform either from Papaage, Paras, Power to make wherever you find yourself.

355
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,960
The database is there to be connected and then use in its grades and because it's relational, that is what me.

356
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,800
I like about it.

357
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,840
He helped us get the less button you need to get in SharePoints.

358
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:33,280
And I think another really new product, it's co-pilot studio.

359
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:42,360
How did it fit into the power platform ecosystem and especially when should I build a co-pilot and when should I build an

360
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,360
app?

361
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:44,920
Okay.

362
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:51,720
So go parlor studio is actually where you build those boards that interact with the users.

363
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:58,600
Now when to build an app and when to build a code that is in the in the co-pilot studio.

364
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560
So not all the process need to be an app as well.

365
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:02,840
Yeah.

366
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,240
And not all the process also need a bots.

367
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,400
So it all goes together.

368
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,080
But all those all both of the need a database.

369
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,360
So now you have our database in SharePoints and then a user need an information.

370
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,240
It doesn't want to go to the app can easily query the agent.

371
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:33,240
So you can build an agent that can respond bringing the data from the app or from the from the database to the user directly without the user opening the app.

372
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:40,680
So in the other hand, you can also tell the user, okay, if you want to fill a form.

373
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:48,160
Or if you want to submit a leaf, just query the the bots in the other hand, you can also have the app that can also do that.

374
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,160
No, it depends on where the person feel is is flexible for him to do.

375
00:26:52,160 --> 00:27:00,280
But you can build a live management system like this on on the chatbot, whereby the chatbot pick your data sending to the

376
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:07,480
database and then update your record and then send an email to your supervisor or superior asking for your leave.

377
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,920
Now in the other hand, you can also have the main app that also does the thing.

378
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,080
Now, there's there's some places whereby the form become complex.

379
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,720
Now when the form becomes complex, our other advice is not to use the bot at that point.

380
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,920
You can use the that's where you need the app to to manage the complexity over there.

381
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:31,400
And on there's some time to you when you submit a request, you need to see the history of that request.

382
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,280
So agent will not be great on that or co-pilot will not be great at that side.

383
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,680
And that's where the app comes in.

384
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:45,440
But if it's just basic information that the user needs, then co-pilot studio or the agent at that point would be great to help.

385
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,200
Like we are trying to query a data, trying to enroll a new user in the company.

386
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,760
And they use the user need some info.

387
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,000
You need to for it on board.

388
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,840
And so the agent will be great is like a child.

389
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:10,280
So it helps progress or step by step guiding the user into the company rather than giving a full onboarding app.

390
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,960
Whereby the user has so many buttons, so many navigation and is wondering where to start fast.

391
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:24,920
Even though there is some way to indicate that register here, but the user find it difficult, but with the chat, user can easily ask.

392
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,960
So wish like proceed then you give the next step.

393
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:34,360
Okay, we need to give us your details, your name so that you create your your ID, your badge or whatever it is.

394
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,520
So I will say that it to depend on the scenario, but it is too complex.

395
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:44,680
You go to the app if it's not that complex and that's not required too much information taking from the user.

396
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,680
Then you go with the agents.

397
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Awesome.

398
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:56,120
I think I has nearly become part of every Microsoft product.

399
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,360
What exciting you actually most.

400
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:05,880
Okay, what exactly most is that at first when I'm designing, it takes me more time.

401
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:11,880
But now I just need to tell what I want and it is done for me.

402
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,080
So that is one great aspect of the tinder.

403
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,640
I need a I like from AI.

404
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,440
It has helped me through all this new, this from change to default, change to the five.

405
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,720
And now it has been helping me greatly in most of my things.

406
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,960
And sometimes, you know, I like watching too much of Resadurani and the rest, their videos.

407
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,160
So sometimes you need some particular place and then you forgot the particular video that you watch.

408
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:44,120
And you have to go through 10 or 5, 5 videos before you get it to, okay, that was the video that I was looking for.

409
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,880
And these are the points I wanted to check.

410
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,000
You know, but if this one, we just query the AI, it can drill through and it gets you the exact

411
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,760
request or what you need at that point just by chatting.

412
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,480
And then it's easier for us to chat and like, oh, no, not this part.

413
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:00,920
I wanted this slide.

414
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,040
And you describe any goes.

415
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,960
That is one thing the AI is helping us with.

416
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,760
So when you are doing the Google search or you want some tutorial, you can easily just ask

417
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,480
strategy, pt.t.t.a. based on my scenario or whatever AI it is, you are using based on my scenario.

418
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,880
What do you request for me or what do you suggest?

419
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,320
And it's helping.

420
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,680
So AI at this point is helping us a lot in that particular photo.

421
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:39,240
But when you think, you say you use also AI for planning and generate a code,

422
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:53,240
do you think this will, yeah, sometimes the developer can't become, yeah, unemployed because the AI

423
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,280
was still a great job.

424
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,240
I don't think so. I will not be only unemployed.

425
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:06,760
No, I was still being employed because I know how to use the AI is not like I'm copying everything

426
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:15,160
the AI is giving me, but it's just like I am like the, let's say I'm like, I'm like the

427
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,400
pro in the office and the AI is like a junior who just joined the company.

428
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,080
And I'm like, hey, I'm busy now.

429
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,840
But can you can you can you get me this far?

430
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,960
It's like, okay, you bring it so I'll verify if it does the file and I need so everything

431
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,440
I query from AI, I always verify it and make sure that it is right.

432
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,360
And when I hear people saying that AI is taking our job well, AI is taking your job cool,

433
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,680
but have you learned about prompt engineering to know how to query AI better?

434
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,320
Because if you know how to query AI better, I don't know why they were such you at the office.

435
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,120
No, because if I'm trying to build

436
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,640
let's say we take power plants from ecosystem and you have an app to build and

437
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,560
there is this plan in in power platform now and you can use plan to just describe what you want

438
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,320
and then the database will be will be getting it will be generated for you and the motor driven

439
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:13,240
applicant isly created from there and now you have that AI in the system and then

440
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,320
now instead of you using that AI, you are known doing things manually and that AI can help you

441
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:25,080
within five to ten minutes finish everything and now you have to create a data manually try to

442
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:31,800
mark everything it to take you maybe a week to finish everything or the architecture while somebody

443
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,400
else in the company just use the AI and then within a day is done so you lose your job definitely.

444
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:44,120
So that is the AI error so you need to just know how to do the prompt engineering to make sure

445
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:51,320
you live with this AI to faster doing our work so that you don't get sucked.

446
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,920
But really say is there something where you say there it's every time you meet a human in the loop

447
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:04,280
and how can I differ a process I can really automate I don't know with agents or completely with AI.

448
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:11,960
Okay so like I said human always come into the loop definitely so the human

449
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,320
they will want to be there to verify what is going on. Now any automation that comes

450
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:24,040
while you're giving today today today AI we need to also understand what is this about.

451
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,480
Now you need to understand it once you understand it you know that okay this is what I want and

452
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,640
you give to the AI. Now when the AI give you your response you need to also verify it does it

453
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:40,760
align with the main idea of this before you take it into some way or into production whatever it is

454
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,040
because that one is also needed and you end up not verifying everything we think is okay

455
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,920
then we copy and then that's why you backfire it backfire us at the at the long run.

456
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:57,800
So the human is always centric at that side verifying what device generated and then when it's

457
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,840
generated and then how it is done if it's correct if there is a fault there's a mistake in it.

458
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:12,920
Does that make sense? Yeah yeah also yeah that's yeah that's really makes sense.

459
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:24,440
I think you say I prompting and prompting, I've been moving through a prompt driven development

460
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:33,160
or did we stay in this time actually? We are in the prompt in developments. Yeah.

461
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,800
And it's growing faster because of the AI growing more and more and this AI is growing

462
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,960
faster in this prompt engineering area. It's growing faster and every developer need to know how

463
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,960
to do this prompt engineering to know how to prompt well to get the best results out of the system

464
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:59,560
if not you will have behind. What do you think what role do you actually play governance?

465
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:08,120
Yeah I say in an AI first world. Okay governance always confess in this AI technology is because

466
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:14,920
this technology is new and we don't know what is the bad side of it and we are all jumping into

467
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:21,720
it and then that's why I always advise when you're using this AI you make sure you're using

468
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:30,280
it on the right in the right way. Copilot is very much secured but company always make sure it is

469
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:36,600
governed over there because we need data protection and most of those over there we need data

470
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:43,080
not to go outside the company and then also we need to lecture everybody using it to know how to

471
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:49,640
use this data to know what type of data to share with the AI so that they don't get compromised.

472
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:56,280
So the governments at the governance at that side is totally needed and always needed and

473
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:04,680
I just urge companies to always make sure that once you enable any AI into the tenant you make sure

474
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:12,440
it's governed you make sure you know what type of site it is assessing so that you are not exposed.

475
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:27,560
Let's a little bit look at your work so we have a little bit real yeah really customer stories

476
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:34,680
is there any you don't have to explain the company name or something. What's one customer success

477
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:44,120
story you're especially proud of? Okay great so when I started building the canvas up actually

478
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:50,520
it was pretty much standard so I built it and I sent to the customer because I was learning and

479
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,640
they were like okay that's great so I spent a lot of hours though but I felt like

480
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:02,600
what I did they were no impressed so yeah I think a year later I took that same app and when

481
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,560
I built it completely refact I found another company they saw you they were like wait this is not

482
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:13,320
a platform this is this is a normal development app they like no verify it very well before they were

483
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,120
like wow how did you do that's why I was like oh okay so I tried to do something great in this

484
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:28,360
platform so I shared this app with online on LinkedIn and you could see hundreds of people just

485
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,280
see me old this is great can you get the UI can you get the source code and when I go to

486
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,480
conflain and I displayed those who know power plus home be like no my brother this is no power plus home

487
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:46,360
so that is a feedback I always get whenever I create and I always want to impress to go beyond

488
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:52,280
what I'm doing always to make sure when I did finish I showed to somebody look do you think this is

489
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:57,800
this is beautiful and not somebody in power platform but somebody has a developed person be like oh

490
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,280
what's that you use is it react it is the bus script before you be like no this is power profanable

491
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:08,520
oh really so I always have that particular site always on a building and then get the feedback

492
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,160
for these people and then see their reaction either you are a pro in power platform you know how

493
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,800
it's waste or you are a pro developer so I always have this to make sure that yeah it is the

494
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:25,240
one because I always want to make sure it's past the normal expectation and yeah we have

495
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:35,720
all to talk about the UX design how do you convince leadership into into UX okay for that site I

496
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:44,680
think the decision over here and because most of the time when the leadership tries to talk I just

497
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,440
tell them that like I am the expert here give me your brand designing and I will follow it but just

498
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,960
make sure that wherever the button is that is the perfect way so when you tell me that no we want

499
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,320
it at this position or say fine then I leave it to you now you realize that I say at the area one

500
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,360
that I give three months to six months and get back the feedback and that is where the feedback back

501
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:12,120
fire the the the the the management they are realizing that okay the decision you made on the UI is

502
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:19,960
actually did not help the the the the the report that you got me it's oh then they come back and be like okay

503
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:26,920
now you got this they really like it at all now draft us a new UI to propose to the team and when you

504
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,000
draft you send everybody will have oh yeah yeah I like the way this one is I like the color

505
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,120
centric I like this and you realize that's okay now we have that crossed so if the company is some

506
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,960
sometimes some of the companies they are they are I would say stubborn so you can't challenge them

507
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,720
so when you tell them that you are new I you are us as pets they don't understand what is us so

508
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:52,120
they feel like I know okay but we want the app to be this way it's so fine what can design it for you by

509
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,240
you want this UI to be like this I will tell you that no this one who know what they say no we want it's

510
00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:02,600
okay you are the one that pay no problem I would design it for you then get let's give us

511
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,400
some three months to get the user feedback so I always do that to get the user feedback and show

512
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,200
you to them that this is what your users are saying what do you think and that is where they realize

513
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:19,480
that okay you made a mistake now let's proceed with your your approach and what are any project

514
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:27,640
where you say what does this this health or you getting a ability that you surprise you yeah so

515
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:38,280
I want to be a bid a not set money in the system and I was so proud of the app updates

516
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:47,400
I was so proud I don't know how when I build it I realized that it has a lot of me giving into the app

517
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:53,080
I I build it and every time I come that is this feature I have to upgrade that is this particular

518
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,920
piece I I build it to I see myself in the app updates I've not released the app out there I wanted

519
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,200
to drop into the community but every time I come I see that there's a new thing I need to add into it

520
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:10,680
and that app to date it still touch me whenever I see it I get inspired I yeah this is actually a

521
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:17,720
grid job I did over here and then there is another one I I use to demo and then I was marveled by

522
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:24,040
whatever I did over there but actually I didn't did alone AI was also parts because it helped me

523
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:30,360
with some of the code and that's one marveled in I see and I'm like wow yeah this has helped a lot

524
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:35,960
so these two apps where I build on the stand alone myself and the other one that build along with

525
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:44,760
AI when I compare the two I'm like yeah I've done a great job yeah community I think that's also

526
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,400
interesting topic why why did you think this community contribution is so important

527
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:57,800
okay physical as an MVP we are there to help the community we are there to support where

528
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:06,680
Microsoft cannot reach and where money is not there that is in the discussion so I love that

529
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:15,560
but just helping I'm just having fun helping and then this journey we are in is is first of all that's

530
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:22,680
that is where I'm MVP to just help and I love volunteering in those things and of course we also

531
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,920
need the money that's why I went also to become an MCT to also well I'm helping people training people

532
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,920
I'm also getting some paid training as well to also survive but the community is actually what

533
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,840
build me up and it will help me to where I am today that's why I always come back and then make sure I

534
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:47,880
give back to that community either in where I'm based locally either in Africa wherever I find myself I

535
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:59,320
always try to contribute as much as possible in that domain perfect awesome yeah that's uh yeah I

536
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:06,120
think you you are also a speaker so what what did you learn from from your international speaking

537
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:15,240
okay so physical before I step outside to go and do that I was I was not confident enough but when

538
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:20,120
I just submitted I saw the the call for speakers one day I'm like okay let me try it so I was

539
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,600
you buy on let me try it and I try and then pick them like okay that's great then I was start to

540
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:31,240
get in panic and uh I don't know when I stood on the stage that they I just started talking and

541
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:36,440
they the the audience were no we're not we're not difficult different different from what I

542
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,760
you know my life is I'm like okay this is our human being here after all and and they were

543
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,560
amazing as well and they just welcomed me and they enjoyed the session so from there I pick it like

544
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,960
okay yeah then I can do this I don't need to be always at home and be doing this I can't really

545
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,520
step outside they they they they come to you or wherever I find myself to to continue doing this so

546
00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:02,760
international speaking is actually amazing doesn't matter uh either you are pro pro pro in your fields

547
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,400
once you know what you are delivering that is that is that a lot that matters and the the audience

548
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:15,400
are always ready to to love whatever you have to share them yeah awesome so I have every

549
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:26,120
yeah every podcast I do a lightning or fast rapid round I ask you some questions you say

550
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:33,400
what first come in your mind okay coffee tea or red bullets through and through the development

551
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:44,040
coffee uh that motor light mode light mode canvas apps are model driven ads canvas up power

552
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:50,680
out of our desktop or cloud flows trust rules well data was or a skill database

553
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:59,000
cool but it's your or power virtual agents power agent one Microsoft feature everyone should try out

554
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:12,200
canvas up have you won productivity habit used well by no that's career advice you ever received

555
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,320
don't trust your employer

556
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:21,720
and what's your favorite conference

557
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:29,960
Microsoft live aspects what will you say it's the actually biggest AI myth

558
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:37,480
um AI is there to replace us is there one book everyone should read

559
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:44,200
uh the man in Babylon or I believe so that's the title there is just money Babylon

560
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:53,320
and what is the skill you will learn next what is it what's it what's the skill you will learn

561
00:45:53,320 --> 00:46:04,600
next um communication okay um yeah good uh moment look a little bit into the future um how

562
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:13,080
or will the local replace traditional development okay it has replaced it a lot already and then

563
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:20,360
we are going beyond it's and um when you see the statistic and local is is growing the app that

564
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:26,520
we are building if pop or whatever it is growing and this local platform are now coming more and more

565
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:33,560
so um the pro development will still be there but local will take more of of what's

566
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:41,960
is why is it so let's say in the next five years I can say maybe 60% growth will come from the

567
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:51,320
local development and when uh Microsoft comes to you and say hey uh because that that you get all

568
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:59,800
the resources all all the money you need what will you redesign on on the power platform tomorrow

569
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:08,680
don't be the canvas studio how it works and make sure it's better has better UI's and then

570
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:18,920
help everybody build easily um yeah that's cool I think yeah yeah I think it's a little bit

571
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,760
sometimes it's a little bit complicated to to start with these all these Microsoft products uh

572
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:33,080
what tips can you give give people that they will start with yeah they have to start with

573
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:40,040
power platform what's the first tip you will give them um just more practicals and I

574
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:47,080
make sure you use the bible of Microsoft which is the Microsoft land so there is a full documentation

575
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,920
of the whole system over there so just take Microsoft land and then practice more of whatever is there

576
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,680
in terms of the powerups or power to meet what the bite is and then put your hands on the real

577
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:05,560
experience a real life scenarios builds more and the more you build you wake you you get experience

578
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,800
and if you don't have any building or you are not working on enterprise now you can just go on the

579
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,280
community page and see the scenarios people are creating over there where they are facing issues

580
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,520
try to replicate it and then try to debug it on your own as well yeah since

581
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:26,040
what uh yeah what will you tell your 20 years you are yourself and you can meet them

582
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:33,720
okay from my 20 years old self like I'm like uh land take and then start i think

583
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:42,920
alien yeah um if there are any any upcoming conferences or events you are speaking

584
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:51,240
yeah yeah um so that would be um city uh Africa and then that would be held in Cameroon that is

585
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:59,480
I think a central Africa then you have dynamic uh Africa that we heard in Ghana as well in July

586
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:05,960
this month yeah i think on only 27 pay like that and i think i'll be in Dubai in

587
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,800
up to about 12 or another for the Microsoft aspect live as well

588
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:18,040
yeah then yeah awesome so i think thank you for for for joining me today i was was really a good

589
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:26,280
conversation i love all the insights um yeah especially when we look uh yeah uh all the topics like

590
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:32,120
AI and so on it's uh i think that's the future future topics the people have to to to look for

591
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:40,120
and yeah so um yeah really nice and all the informations and links are in the show notes on the

592
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:47,960
on the mc65 and podcast page from you and yeah so what's the one final message you like

593
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:55,080
uh every listener to me to remember um okay so to every listener about the edges uh

594
00:49:55,080 --> 00:50:00,360
embrace what you love to do and then uh make sure you do it well when you are when you are taking

595
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:06,840
into that position make sure you achieve the best out of what the weather puts you in that's my

596
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:12,920
final stop awesome yeah then yeah thank you for for being here and stay the time and spend your time

597
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:21,880
with me and yeah i'm i'm very grateful thank you thank you thank you i serve michael bye