Building Azure That Survives the Real World — with Mike Martin [MVP]

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Hello everyone and welcome back to the M65 as M podcast.

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Azure Architation is easy when you.

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Yeah, when everything works, then interesting question starts when dependencies fail, regions

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become unavailable, assumptions turn out to be a wrong coast rise.

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And teams grow, we probably haven't changed and somebody everybody asked.

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Why did we design it this way?

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Mike Markin has spent almost three decades in IT across development, infrastructure, architecture,

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system design, leadership coaching, training and community work with deep experience across

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Microsoft Azure and particular focus on architecture and resistance.

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This is, yeah, we are, I make it short, we explore how the world, rather than walking

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through in middle Azure services.

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This interview is focused on architecture judgment, how we make better decision, how we

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design, tell you what architecture is really wrong and how the role of Azure architecture

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is changing.

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Yeah, Mike, you are being working in IT for 30 years.

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That's amazing when you look back, when you look back, where are the major turning points

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that shape the way you're thinking about technology?

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Yeah, first of all, it's like showing age, right?

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Well, the stuff you're really old.

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Yeah, 30 years, I started, professionally, I started in 96, 97.

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I started my career as a visual basic developer, by the way.

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Visual basic, yeah.

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Visual basic, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I have learned, in a, a new view was about it.

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So I was basically designing software, all really with distributed software and the

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price based, visual basic, so like, common, complex and deep come in all these things and

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transactions, sir, and all the cool things that we had at the time.

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At today, my main business is mostly now Azure and in between, I did a lot of things and

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you asked me what changed over these 30 years.

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Well, the one thing that is a constant is that all the problems keep reappearing.

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There's always things like DNS, there's always things like IP changes, there's always things

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like, like, dependencies that get broken, there's always these things.

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But the biggest change I think is the way that we move from a single application into

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a more complex architecture.

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So we used to have client server, we used to have distributed, compute where we had middle

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tiers and multiple tiers and then we had layers and then we came up with these new concepts

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of, let's move it into the cloud and do some hybrid.

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And then before we knew it, we had all these things like Kubernetes and microservices and

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all these things.

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I think the biggest change there is the way that we're looking at software, naming it for

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the better because we humans are kind of, you know, most happy spot if you can overcomplexify

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things.

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And I see that a lot nowadays because I see designs of applications, I go like, or solutions,

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I go like, oh my god, what have they built it now?

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There's a lot of a lot of varsity things that are thinking that they need to be like Dr.

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Frank and Stein in that they also need to create a monster instead of creating a solution.

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So that's basically that.

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But I think that is the thing that I see most in the change is the way we have all these

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technologies and we tend to complexify a lot of things and we cannot keep it simple anymore.

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Even when it's a simple solution, we cannot keep it simple anymore.

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And I think that is the biggest change and I think that will change for the better over the

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next course of say next 15 to 20 years, especially not with the coming of all these things that

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we now at hand like AI because, you know, developers don't need to know anymore what they're

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doing, they're just five coded and they go ahead and push it to production, right?

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So there's that.

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So yeah, that's, I think that's, I think that is the biggest change that I've seen over

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the course of 30 years that we still have the same problems.

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We just made them more complex to deeper into to do to detangle basically.

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That's that's what it comes down to.

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I see on your link the profile you are as you take.

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And that is a bit hard, but the king can almost, it can mean almost everything.

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What do the architecture mean to you and how, yeah, what the person's, the person's of architecture

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and technology or technical stuff that you do?

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What do, what's the real, what's the architecture?

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Okay, so I was very lucky to be on the very first basis of Azure.

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I started in the early days.

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So when Azure was still red dog, while it was still a little, a little puppy, I was there

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at the PDC.

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I was there when Ray O'Z announced that we're going to have a cloud.

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And I saw the first portal and actually have been actively playing around or building with

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it since 2009 since the first installments.

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So 2009 was really playing and having a sample size somewhere and things like that.

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And portals were like nonexistent.

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The first portal was one button remembered well.

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And then we had that silver lighting, then we had that silver lighting, which nobody remembers

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apparently.

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And that thing evolved.

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And with the evolving part of Azure complexity also came, I come from a developer back

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round, but I also have an infrastructure background.

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I came in from Windows 2,000 networking into, and also some Unix networking system monitoring.

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And Azure for me, it all came together.

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And this is where I found my interest.

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I didn't want to build a search as just writing code, but I wanted to make sure that the solutions

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could be existing, the way cloud was intended to be scalable and resilient at every level.

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And for me, architecture is about knowing which pieces go together, which pieces to avoid,

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which pieces are necessary and which pieces are not.

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And building something beautiful out of it, which is not complex, which makes it easy to

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maintain, and which makes it also as cloud native as possible without referring to cloud native.

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Because cloud native has just a connotation, it has to be Kubernetes, it has to be that.

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News flash, you don't always need Kubernetes, you don't always need containers.

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There's a lot of native services that you can just use and make them all work together.

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But for me, architecture is more about design a full solution.

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It's not about one single application, you need to be able to cope with integrations, you

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need to be able to cope with everything surrounding that solution, like monitoring security,

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it all comes together.

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And that's for me is the architectural part.

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And there's some annoyance when I look at certain other architics, and I'm not saying

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that they are bad, who are they doing.

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But typically most of the architics that I'm seeing today are being architated from a way

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that they were building architectures in a data center.

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VDIP-based, VLamb based, VDNS based, VR-based, VR-based, VR-based, VR-based, VR-based, VR-based,

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network oriented, which is always the best way.

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You should look at data flows, you should look at identity flows, you should look at security

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flows, you should look at how compute needs to be distributed.

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What are the capabilities that you need?

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These things.

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And it typically start designing wrong in my eyes.

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Okay?

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Does that sound like, does it sound like bragging or like me being uptight?

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No, it's just, I've seen things that do that work, and I try to make sure that people

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don't make the same mistakes that other people made.

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That's for me architics.

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But I have so many questions about the deep dive a little bit in our, we have the Kubernetes.

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It's such a cool service.

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We have to use function, the Kubernetes app service container service box.

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I think for normal business guys, we don't have a plan, what we use when, what should

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the, should we discuss first as not technical guys?

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What will your solution need to be doing, first of all?

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And with that, I mean, will it be an internal or an external application?

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How many users does it have?

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Does it need to scale?

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Does it need to be resilient?

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Is it something long lift, short lift?

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Is it something which is impacting a lot of users?

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And also is it impacting users worldwide?

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Even if you're using an internal application, it still could be that you have, let's say,

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a sub, a subsidiary in, in, in, in, in the United States, you have a subsidiary in, in, in,

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in, in, in, in, in, somewhere in Europe, and they all need to work together.

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Look at the way that those requirements need to be built up and typically that's a business

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approach.

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What compliance do we need to uphold?

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What's our rock time?

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As a lace, as a lose, our deals, our bureaus?

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And those are things that can be defined even without an architecture.

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There's a requirements that you need to set, and you need to take a look at it.

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The second thing is, how can we live with an application if you pull the plug on it?

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What will happen?

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Who will be responsible, but also who will be impacted and will they start yelling at

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you when you do pull the plug?

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And there's a, there's a, there's a brother from another mother, as I like to call him.

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He's called Derek Martin and he has a great series of, of sessions that he does when he

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goes to conferences.

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The one whose session is, is about resilience and his first rule of thumb, and I also live

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by that is never take a dependency on a single region.

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Always make a design for multiple regions.

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So that way you always have a plan B and even a plan C or a plan D because anything can happen.

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Yeah.

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A region can go down or you want to deploy quickly into another region.

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Capacity can go down.

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It's, it's a given.

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I mean, we have to fight it.

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Capacity issues are existing in any cloud, not on Microsoft cloud in any cloud.

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Although with Microsoft, it's more visible apparently than down, for instance, with AWS or

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Google, although they have the same capacity issues that just don't want to admit it.

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Yeah.

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The reason why is because of the, of the growth of everything, which is AI, which is taking

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more power and the traditional data centers cannot follow anymore with all the power that

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they need.

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So they cannot expand their data centers anymore because of the powers capacity to give you

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an idea. One of the reasons why, why Microsoft in Western Europe cannot deploy anymore is

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typically because there's a lot of power there because the Netherlands have power issue.

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And that's the same everywhere.

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So and everybody's working, working their, their butts off to actually make it work and

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seeing that there's enough capacity.

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But it's, it's actually the, the, the, the, the, the victims of their own success.

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Yeah.

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And when we never planned on, on that kind of a success, although we have been growing all

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these, this cloud business over the last 10 years, like him, muslims, I mean, we see year

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over year growth in most of the cloud providers for about 30%, which is huge, right?

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So, and that brings us to do, if you need to start designing, what are the questions that

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you need to be asking your business?

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Without the questions that you need to be asking also, not only your business, maybe also

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your users or even your developers in your, in your system managers, how do, how do they

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want to cope with it?

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Do they want to do it 24/7 support?

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Do they want to do a full high NCICD and they want to be bothered anymore with deployments

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on Friday evening?

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These kind of things.

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Those are the questions that you need to be asking.

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And that's also our signature.

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If you're moving to the cloud, what kind of art do you need to follow?

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You know, there's eight alt, right?

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And one of them is we platform you, so have re-hosting, but also do we need to move it

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to the cloud?

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Can we know just like, put it into the, into the grave for us and just retire it?

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It's all these things that you need to be asking yourself.

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Yeah.

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I think some people are not really family with these, I think, bospers at your IPO.

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I think at your, it's really famous for my daughter.

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She's here for years.

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How long can I stay online?

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At your, I don't know.

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It's more for the, how would you explain this in?

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For a deep dive, how will you explain this?

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So RTN, right?

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Was that the question?

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Yeah.

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So yeah, I'm going to wait for a second.

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So because I heard the fire trick or what is it?

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Nambless?

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I don't know.

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No, but if we talk about RTN, so we have a recovery time objective and we have a recovery

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point of jitter.

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So how much, how fast do you want to get online?

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RTO.

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How do you want to get back online?

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And I know my data loss is acceptable.

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That's RPO.

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So these are the points that you need to define.

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So if you have an accessible, an acceptable loss of four hours for your business because it's,

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it's not about or the management, but it's more about monitoring of something and it's

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not really needed that, that is real time data.

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It can actually move along without having that.

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Then it's fine.

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But if it's something critical, let's say, for first responders, the fire trick came, came

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in as an example.

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Then an RTO, which is really fast, is necessary, like five minutes, ten minutes, these kind

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of things.

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But these are design decisions that will also help you ground and build your solution with,

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because that's an necessity for resilient application too.

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We only think about the architecture decisions.

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What's a really famous topic in what most you can, you can write it or say a little bit

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about this identity, network, data architecture, region surgery, platform engineer decisions,

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ten design, what, what, what, what did you think?

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To me, architecture is, is all about those because if you do, if you're building a solution,

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you need all of them.

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But it depends on what kind of an architect you are and there's multiple levels.

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I see myself as a solution slash enterprise architect because I also need them taking,

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taking to account integrations that are there.

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Dependencies that you have on extended systems or auxiliary systems like, let's say, for instance,

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you need to integrate within a, within a AP system.

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That doesn't mean that you need to be running it, but you need to know that if your system

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goes down, it might be a dependency on SAP, which will bring down the SAP flow, which will

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probably break down your invoicing or your order management or whatever kind of part that

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you that you're relying on that.

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So that's an important thing.

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But it also comes down to, I'm going to give you an example.

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If you, let's say, for instance, I'm going to give a real live example of something that

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I see every single year.

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It's taxes.

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So we have to, you have to push our taxes into, yeah, I don't know, you're in Germany, right?

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Or are you in Switzerland?

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And they are in Germany.

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I'm going to come back.

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Let's put that down.

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Okay.

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So I don't know how you do it in Germany, but each year we need to fill out our taxes

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on a certain site and we, and they have all that data.

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But everybody typically waits to the last few days and then the system breaks because

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there's not enough scale, there's not enough space, there's, there's timeouts because of

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things being troubled.

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I know it.

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So that's a typical use case of, of, of how a cloud application should work.

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And one of the things that always fails is our Belgian government has a, it's own identity

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system.

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It's an EID and you need to like, jacket your EID cart into a car, and, and, and, and that

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always gets worked.

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Especially on the, and it doesn't, and it doesn't always work because it always gives you

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timeouts and then, and then you need to update it and does work and then, and it fails again.

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And then once you get in, the token doesn't get recognized on the site and there's always

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something.

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Now, there's a small company, and there's a small company, which is now expanding out

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throughout Europe, a company which I'm really proud of.

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It's called It's Me and they build a, a digital identity based upon a phone verification and

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I mean numbers and they use the identity of your EID or your banking account because a banking

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account is a validated identity, a determinator.

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And they can really scale.

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So they don't, you don't need to validate against the state anymore.

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They do the validation for you, but they really scale and their application is existing into

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a, into a cloud building solution, in a, to a cloud build solution, which can on each of

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the levels of the application can scale and fail independently.

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So their backend will not be troubled by the front end and so on.

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Bringing that back then to the texting, once you authenticate, you feel again that the

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state's application is, is terrible because then you press the submit, there's a process

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being filed, but it's in real time.

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They don't do the a sync part and that's the thing.

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You need to be looking into how many of my features can I build a sync?

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How many of my features do I need in real time?

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It's all these design decisions and that's an application part, but also your, with that

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application part, you also need to design of the infrastructure behind it because a front

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end can easily, if you press a button multiple times and it does it immediately respond,

283
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will it break your front end?

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Right?

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But also, if you press it once and it keeps rolling, keeps doing pulse to the backend, that's

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a bad design decision because it's waiting for the backend.

287
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It should be loosely coupled and should be just pushing something into a queue and event

288
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source or whatever and making sure that it comes back like that.

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That way each of your layers of your application will be able to fail and scale independently

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and making sure that your application is resilient.

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After that, multiple regions and you have a full resilient application, but most of the

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applications, especially with the state, are not built that way.

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Why?

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Because we're running it in our own data center.

295
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It needs to be, it needs to be in our country.

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Germans are really good at that, by the way.

297
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Yeah.

298
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And I get that.

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You want to stay sovereign and you want to make sure that you have your data under

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control.

301
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But then you don't need to be starting to pretend that you're doing cloud applications.

302
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Then you're just doing hosting of these applications yourself and that's not the way you should

303
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,520
be looking at it.

304
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,880
If you're talking about applications which are being run in Europe, everything in Europe

305
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,840
is valid as a landing zone for European applications.

306
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And sometimes you have these exceptions like in France, medical data and it's a stay in

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France in Germany.

308
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There's also certain data that needs to be in Germany.

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Belgium is just the same thing.

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We only have one type of application that needs to be on Belgium soil, especially in the

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cloud, but also in a data center that is gambling data because police need to be able to jack

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out the discs to see where there's white color crime involved and where there's fraud involved.

313
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So it's all these things that come to play.

314
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And when we were designing, a lot of developers don't think that way.

315
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They think about, "I want to make it beautiful and want to make it like technical and all

316
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display with that technology and do it by that."

317
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But if you then push it to production at scale, you see things break because they never

318
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thought of these things at scale.

319
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They never came into contact with things like distributed computing or event sourcing

320
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for that matter.

321
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,360
So today we have a lot of tools that can help us with that.

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Think about tooling like Dapper, think about tooling like Radius, think about tooling like Aspire,

323
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:09,320
which allows us to actually instantiate certain things in more instances, more pots, more

324
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services that can roll with those resilience factors.

325
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So that's basically what it comes down to.

326
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:27,760
Yeah, I lose by on your LinkedIn and other profiles around the net and something you

327
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,720
are really work on or your famous for is recent architecture.

328
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:39,200
And I have some questions about the recent architecture.

329
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,920
What is the difference between a variable?

330
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,720
What is the variable and what is the difference?

331
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,880
Yeah, it's a real.

332
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,400
What did you think?

333
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:59,920
So how available and resilient they go hand in hand and still they exist separately.

334
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:07,640
So I always compare resilient with look at a tropical island.

335
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,380
And what's typical for a tropical island is always palm trees at the beach and a palm

336
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tree is a remarkable thing.

337
00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:20,820
A palm tree is like you see them hanging over the water and they like high and they always

338
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:23,860
go in bending in a bending shape.

339
00:25:23,860 --> 00:25:29,060
Now let's imagine that you are on that island in a tropical storm.

340
00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:31,260
El Nino for instance, passes there.

341
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:37,860
What happens is all those palm trees when wind arises, all those palm trees they typically

342
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hit the floor.

343
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:44,700
And they stay at the floor while the wind is there while the storm is still happening.

344
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At a certain point in time the storm stops and what happens is you see palm trees arise

345
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,700
again like very naturally.

346
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Like you come back up.

347
00:25:55,540 --> 00:25:59,820
You can imagine it like in cartoons.

348
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:01,580
That's resilience.

349
00:26:01,580 --> 00:26:02,820
It doesn't break.

350
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:06,220
The palm tree stays a palm tree.

351
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:11,700
And afterwards you can still see that a palm tree didn't or almost didn't suffer any damage.

352
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:12,700
Right?

353
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:20,720
High available means that it will break but you have a secondary palm tree that will take

354
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,660
over its place but it's on another spot.

355
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:30,740
So you still have, let's say that we just replant that palm tree afterwards.

356
00:26:30,740 --> 00:26:32,700
That's high available.

357
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:37,260
Does it mean that it will be resilience?

358
00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:39,060
No, because there is a difference there.

359
00:26:39,060 --> 00:26:44,180
But resilience will also make sure that it will not go down but also there is no issue

360
00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:48,780
with regions that it will also be able to cope with the load that it will be able to cope

361
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:53,340
with the scale that it will be able to cope with any mechanisms that happen underneath.

362
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:58,220
That it can actually function while there is application errors and so on and so on.

363
00:26:58,220 --> 00:27:03,740
But available just means that we can ping it and that we can still have a available somehow.

364
00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:06,940
And if there is an issue we can just fail over.

365
00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:08,940
That's the biggest difference.

366
00:27:08,940 --> 00:27:11,340
I like this.

367
00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:15,940
I often hear one phrase.

368
00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:20,620
It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's highly available.

369
00:27:20,620 --> 00:27:24,620
I heard so often.

370
00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:34,740
I used to statement a little bit dangerous and where does Microsoft responsible end and

371
00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:40,860
where does the customer respond the begin from your perspective.

372
00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:47,020
So there is indeed the false premise that cloud is high available and high resilient.

373
00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:49,500
Now high resilience, that's a given.

374
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:53,580
I mean, you have all these opportunities and all these solutions to make it out of

375
00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:55,580
the box resilient as possible.

376
00:27:55,580 --> 00:28:01,020
And think about how you can deploy Vm in multiple zones, for instance, or any compute for

377
00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:02,740
that matter.

378
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:04,740
Think about storage accounts.

379
00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:10,660
A storage account has automatically underneath the hood three copies within a data center.

380
00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:17,220
And it will pass on on different, on different parts of the stamp to make sure that data can

381
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:21,660
be consistently written to that stamp, to that data stamp.

382
00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:26,980
So Microsoft does some work, but that doesn't mean that your application will be fully resilient

383
00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:31,220
or fully high available because there's still some design patterns that you need to adhere

384
00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:32,220
to.

385
00:28:32,220 --> 00:28:38,940
And if you don't deploy your Vm, if you choose not to deploy your Vm in multiple zones, it

386
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:39,940
will not happen.

387
00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:45,060
It will just be deployed in one zone or in multiple regions for that matter or in multi

388
00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:47,660
zone or regional regions and so on and so on.

389
00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:54,260
So these are design decisions. They come with some challenges, typically it's costs and

390
00:28:54,260 --> 00:29:00,740
also operations because you need to monitor them in a different way.

391
00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:05,500
But they also can help you speed up.

392
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:12,900
And as I said earlier, where does the responsibility of Microsoft and well, once you start deploying,

393
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:15,620
you choose to deploy only one in one region.

394
00:29:15,620 --> 00:29:22,960
Yeah, the break Microsoft will not be held responsible for your application to move, unless you

395
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,580
say, of course, I want an auto failover, let's say with my Cosmos DB to another region

396
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:35,660
because I designed it that way or where I have a read only copy there for that matter.

397
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:42,220
These are things that you can have in your own control because you designed them that

398
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:43,620
way.

399
00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:52,100
But out of the box, a lot of these services are not being enabled by a checkbox out of the

400
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:53,300
box.

401
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:54,660
You need to choose that yourself.

402
00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:57,700
And some some services do have that.

403
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:04,140
They do an underneath under the layer scaling or they do an under the layer high available

404
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:06,540
thing.

405
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:11,060
Mostly if they're built upon upon containers, you will actually see that that they will

406
00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:14,540
have the Kubernetes lifecycle and needed.

407
00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:19,580
So these things do exist, but there's still a lot of decisions that you need to take your

408
00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:20,580
own.

409
00:30:20,580 --> 00:30:26,060
And you need to have some certain design patterns in fact in in mind like the circuit break

410
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:30,420
if for instance, if you have a circuit break it does.

411
00:30:30,420 --> 00:30:34,020
Then if one service goes down, that doesn't mean that your entire solution need to be going

412
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:35,020
down.

413
00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:39,540
Those were the examples that I already gave earlier in the discussion.

414
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:41,900
So it's these things that you need to keep in mind.

415
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:45,620
And luckily Microsoft has good guidance there.

416
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:49,820
It's called it's called the bellar should take the framework where you can have design

417
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:54,100
patterns and you can have all these design patterns like singleton circuit break or you

418
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:58,900
cannot imagine how many they are, but they're all like well explained.

419
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:04,860
And if you then combine with things like cloud adoption framework, you can actually build

420
00:31:04,860 --> 00:31:07,660
up on a full resilient application.

421
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:08,660
Is that sufficient?

422
00:31:08,660 --> 00:31:13,620
No, you also need to be having some experience in how to do these things because documentation

423
00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:17,820
is one thing, but you also need to be monitoring that in a correct way.

424
00:31:17,820 --> 00:31:21,980
You also need to make sure that you understand what you're doing.

425
00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:23,380
Following documentation is not enough.

426
00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:28,660
You also need to think about these things and what happens if.

427
00:31:28,660 --> 00:31:34,220
And then there's an additional part because we can be prepared for that and we can build

428
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:35,220
like that.

429
00:31:35,220 --> 00:31:39,540
Microsoft can offer us that, but are we sure now?

430
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:44,020
And then there's one thing to do that's testing these things, right?

431
00:31:44,020 --> 00:31:46,580
And then you start doing like a what will happen?

432
00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:49,740
Will my resilience break if I put a lot of stress on it?

433
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:54,820
If I put a lot of load on it and you can do things like playwright service, testing or

434
00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:56,660
Azure load testing.

435
00:31:56,660 --> 00:31:58,540
But what if something else happens?

436
00:31:58,540 --> 00:32:01,060
What if a region goes down?

437
00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:03,140
Well, you cannot just yak away the service.

438
00:32:03,140 --> 00:32:09,540
Then you go looking at things like Azure Chaos Studio and do fault injections, home production,

439
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:12,780
on staging, whatever, whatever works for you.

440
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:15,220
And use these as fire drills.

441
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:17,500
Use these as exercises.

442
00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:20,420
Make sure that these things can work for you.

443
00:32:20,420 --> 00:32:23,580
And this is how resilience is being built up.

444
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:26,500
It's not just one thing that you need to keep in mind of.

445
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:30,860
It's the some of all fears that you need to combine.

446
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:35,460
And bring in that to a single solution in one single architecture.

447
00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:40,020
So, so my, so home like let me more of 11 do it here.

448
00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:45,860
And I pay for the Azure SRA for the service level agreement.

449
00:32:45,860 --> 00:32:54,780
So I think I pay a lot of money for it.

450
00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:57,780
What?

451
00:32:57,780 --> 00:33:02,260
What's my misunderstanding about the SAs?

452
00:33:02,260 --> 00:33:06,860
So the service, the service level, the service agreement that you have with Microsoft is more

453
00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:10,220
about the support that you have.

454
00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:14,780
Preemptive or reactive, right?

455
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:19,660
So they can do proactive support like, hey, they're going to go over with you over research,

456
00:33:19,660 --> 00:33:20,660
for instance.

457
00:33:20,660 --> 00:33:23,620
So you're going to see what the incident reports look like.

458
00:33:23,620 --> 00:33:24,780
How you can report that.

459
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:31,660
But they will also go with you over your solution and take a look at, wow, what you built

460
00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:36,380
here, you should, and they're going to give the same advice like I do.

461
00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:38,100
But then it's grounded from their art.

462
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:40,900
So it's actually hard evidence that they're going to give you and you're going to give

463
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,500
you some reports and some assessments.

464
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:48,620
And typically this comes with things like unify or support contracts where you can actually

465
00:33:48,620 --> 00:33:51,780
sign them all.

466
00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:55,780
So are they useful?

467
00:33:55,780 --> 00:33:57,100
Yes, the certain level they are useful.

468
00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:01,380
You always need them if you get good architics and you have a lot of credits and you have a

469
00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:03,540
lot of money also.

470
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:06,500
You can just design these things as well.

471
00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:11,700
Use things like advise to have you well informed about the things that there are, but also take

472
00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:18,260
a look at service retirements, service updates and so on and so on because they also play.

473
00:34:18,260 --> 00:34:24,340
Microsoft actually, with their service agreement, they actually do this exactly, they do preemptive

474
00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:29,980
calls, they do proactive calls saying, hey, look, these things will happen.

475
00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:32,740
Maybe it's time to move into V next.

476
00:34:32,740 --> 00:34:34,460
Maybe it's time to start designing this.

477
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:38,420
And by the way, you have a year and a half now to do that because in the year and a half,

478
00:34:38,420 --> 00:34:39,940
this will change.

479
00:34:39,940 --> 00:34:48,340
So this is where that kind of support comes from and where that kind of a service level is

480
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:50,540
coming from at Microsoft.

481
00:34:50,540 --> 00:34:54,300
So it's not like that they are going to do a full switching.

482
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:58,180
There will be a support when there's when there's when shit hits the fan basically and

483
00:34:58,180 --> 00:35:04,220
because they are being there for severity a severity, be severity, see, we'll have dedicated

484
00:35:04,220 --> 00:35:06,060
support people on that.

485
00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:08,260
Yes, that's true.

486
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:16,500
But they will not guarantee you that they will monitor your service and put it up 24/7.

487
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:18,580
That's your responsibility.

488
00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:27,060
But they will help you try to maintain that, like supporting you in that in that operation.

489
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:34,820
I think in a little bit of we have the tailing of the guys, they have the energy or the RPO

490
00:35:34,820 --> 00:35:43,780
and we have as a side, I think there are more people, I call it the business reality.

491
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:55,060
So how often do companies claim they need a zero downtime with, yeah, understanding what

492
00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:59,300
the requirements really cost?

493
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:00,300
We're talking about the 9-0.

494
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:01,820
That's always funny to see.

495
00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:07,180
I actually had it once, a partner coming up, I was working at Microsoft and a partner coming

496
00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:10,060
up and I, we need an Isla of 100%.

497
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:12,820
And then we're like, good luck with that.

498
00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:15,740
You will never have an Isla of 100%.

499
00:36:15,740 --> 00:36:17,260
Not even at Microsoft.

500
00:36:17,260 --> 00:36:23,180
Not even if you're doing it yourself, you will never have 100%.

501
00:36:23,180 --> 00:36:29,540
Because the Isla is the product of all the Isla is of the different services that you have.

502
00:36:29,540 --> 00:36:36,020
Some services have 99.9, other services have 99.99, a couple of services are reaching up

503
00:36:36,020 --> 00:36:38,060
to five nines.

504
00:36:38,060 --> 00:36:42,980
But if you then have five nines, time, three nines, you only will end up with four nines.

505
00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:48,700
So that narrows down your Isla time and that narrows down your up time, your 100%.

506
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:49,700
Is that a bad thing?

507
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:51,700
No.

508
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:56,780
But people need to be aware of their selling their service at 100% is a lay.

509
00:36:56,780 --> 00:36:59,700
They will shoot themselves in the photo already before they even sell it.

510
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:09,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

511
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:19,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

512
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:29,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

513
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:39,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

514
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:49,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

515
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:59,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

516
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:09,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

517
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:11,700
[BLANK_AUDIO]

518
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:22,060
Yeah, we have these are dudes, they say 100% are online and we have the outside, they have

519
00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:25,700
these SLA's, the service, that would be mean.

520
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:36,220
What, Mike did you think about and can we reach the 100% really?

521
00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:38,780
Never, that's the biggest joke ever.

522
00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:44,540
People going up with that that you can have 100% isla, good luck with that because you always

523
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:47,460
have component which is less than that isla.

524
00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:53,220
Don't forget that your isla is always calculated to the products of all these isla is combined.

525
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:58,580
It's funny when I was murking at Microsoft at one partner, we were actually requested at

526
00:38:58,580 --> 00:38:59,820
a certain point in time.

527
00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:05,260
Yeah, we want a service which is, we want to build our service 100% isla up time towards

528
00:39:05,260 --> 00:39:06,260
our customers.

529
00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:10,180
You know, and like, good luck with that because if you're running on Azure, the highest capable

530
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:18,500
service that you can have at, at, as a lay is 99.99, so five nines, that's the highest

531
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:19,500
that you can reach.

532
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,180
And you're like, oh, really?

533
00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:27,940
So combined that with an additional service, let's say 99.99, you're all of a sudden

534
00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:34,340
are back to three nines and so on and so on and they were, they were like really surprised.

535
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:38,780
So it's a false premise that you can have 100% up time that's never given.

536
00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:45,660
But you want to make sure that you can be as close as possible and that you have mitigations

537
00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:55,380
and fallback scenarios to avoid that, let's say, 0.0, X percent.

538
00:39:55,380 --> 00:40:00,460
So to make sure that you don't fail, that you don't have a downtime, that you don't have

539
00:40:00,460 --> 00:40:06,740
to do a failover and it does failover, just make sure that you stay calm.

540
00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:12,060
And you have that plan B checked that it works, that you tested it before and then we're

541
00:40:12,060 --> 00:40:15,540
hoping that everything comes back up in no time, right?

542
00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:21,660
Because it's not only like moving into another region or like putting that, that backup plan

543
00:40:21,660 --> 00:40:25,860
or that as a lay plan and the interaction, but it's also going back to the normal situation

544
00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:30,380
afterwards because that's also something that a lot of people don't realize that if something

545
00:40:30,380 --> 00:40:35,380
breaks and if something fails, at a certain point in time, you need to head back over to the

546
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:40,740
normal situation because your backup situation can never be your normal situation.

547
00:40:40,740 --> 00:40:47,300
Unless you can really say it's 100% on par on each side, that's also something that you

548
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:51,060
can do, but then you're going to start paying a lot of money, for instance, right?

549
00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:52,900
And a lot of service will help you with that.

550
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:59,300
Think about things like service buzz that will now copy cues into one region into another

551
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:02,780
or high resilient and are available.

552
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:06,580
Think about new service like Azure resilience manager.

553
00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:10,700
Think about new services like not all new services.

554
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:13,140
Think about Azure site recovery.

555
00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:16,780
Think about Cosmos DB.

556
00:41:16,780 --> 00:41:21,660
All these services have these capabilities to quickly fail over into another region or

557
00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:28,140
into another zone for that matter and making sure that your service stays up and running.

558
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:30,900
But 100% forget about that.

559
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:33,900
That will never fly that will never happen.

560
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:45,460
Yeah, for me, it's a, I never have, one time, one time, but it was Microsoft Teams Failure,

561
00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:53,180
something deployed, Microsoft something and I cannot use Teams, and it's really my most

562
00:41:53,180 --> 00:41:54,340
use tool.

563
00:41:54,340 --> 00:42:05,580
But when I think on the Azure services, for me is, it's, it's near zero-dalt time.

564
00:42:05,580 --> 00:42:07,500
That's what Microsoft aims to do too.

565
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:09,060
Yeah, exactly.

566
00:42:09,060 --> 00:42:17,220
I mean, and we, Microsoft is being very helpful with globally deployed services.

567
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:25,460
Think about, Intra, think about helping you with traffic management, thinking about front

568
00:42:25,460 --> 00:42:30,420
or service that they also use because they came from their own stables and they productized

569
00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:31,740
it afterwards.

570
00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:35,260
Front or for instance, it's been existing for over so many years.

571
00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:40,780
It was first used in service like OneNote, Sky for Business, but also Halo for instance.

572
00:42:40,780 --> 00:42:43,340
As a front, as an entry point.

573
00:42:43,340 --> 00:42:47,020
So that way it worked at scale, but it also worked for resilient because you know, you

574
00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:54,460
don't want to like piss off 150,000 gamers when they're doing a dead match in Halo for instance,

575
00:42:54,460 --> 00:42:55,460
right?

576
00:42:55,460 --> 00:42:56,700
You don't want to, you don't want to see that happen.

577
00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:58,940
Do you have claims going on?

578
00:42:58,940 --> 00:43:03,180
So that's something you try to avoid at all costs.

579
00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:08,860
And with the knowledge that they have of managing their own services, they now deliver services

580
00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:18,220
that can be up to 100% or at least five, nine's availability.

581
00:43:18,220 --> 00:43:24,060
But again, as I stated, you can get as close as possible, but it's always a sum of all

582
00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:25,060
fears.

583
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:35,060
If you have multiple services at 99.9, well, it will never reach even two nines behind the

584
00:43:35,060 --> 00:43:38,780
coma.

585
00:43:38,780 --> 00:43:48,380
I think over three years, we have downtime for over 30 seconds.

586
00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:58,020
I think all my clients come in the 30 seconds, but in our sound, no joke.

587
00:43:58,020 --> 00:44:06,300
And we have talk about the IPO and the IPO and the business.

588
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:11,700
And I think a little bit about it.

589
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:23,380
Sorry for those because I'm only one person company and from you, nearly, yeah, I don't

590
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:26,620
care.

591
00:44:26,620 --> 00:44:35,500
But what point do is another nine of the labels to stop making financial sentence when you

592
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:42,580
talk to your clients as architecture and how did you see it?

593
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:47,700
Is it the nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine,

594
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:52,540
or I think, I say, let's have a present.

595
00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:53,540
It's good.

596
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:55,660
I don't know.

597
00:44:55,660 --> 00:44:56,580
How did you see it?

598
00:44:56,580 --> 00:45:01,180
It depends on the business use case and it also depends on the way that they're looking

599
00:45:01,180 --> 00:45:09,380
at a customer management internally or externally because it's not always of external facing

600
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:10,380
applications.

601
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:13,140
If your sauce company, it becomes more important.

602
00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:19,120
If it's internal tooling or internal sites or internal applications, you can cure less

603
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,580
because there's always something that breaks internally.

604
00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:31,580
To give you an idea, if a holiday application form internally for your company doesn't

605
00:45:31,580 --> 00:45:34,700
work for a couple of hours, that's an issue.

606
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:35,940
It can be bypassed.

607
00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:41,500
I mean, if you manage it, it says go by mail, you fill it out tomorrow and so good.

608
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:45,780
But if you have an order fulfillment system, for instance, where you are the next, let's

609
00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:53,180
say, Amazon or you are the next AliExpress or sheen, that's a different story because every

610
00:45:53,180 --> 00:45:58,260
minute that you have downtime brings you, breaks your bank, right?

611
00:45:58,260 --> 00:45:59,260
The costs are high.

612
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:06,940
So you need to see for yourself what a financial impact will be of a non-resilient or a non-high

613
00:46:06,940 --> 00:46:10,180
available application.

614
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:17,340
The resilience in the available applications here then become really something important

615
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:23,340
because high available is one thing.

616
00:46:23,340 --> 00:46:25,340
That's bad luck in the cost of your bank.

617
00:46:25,340 --> 00:46:31,340
But if your application is not resilient, you always have some issues like tropling or whatever.

618
00:46:31,340 --> 00:46:32,340
Customers will stay away.

619
00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:37,740
That's even worse because if you have, let's say, for instance, that you are building the

620
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:43,980
next Amazon and every click that you do to buy a product.

621
00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:49,980
And every click that you do to buy a product takes about five minutes to store it and then

622
00:46:49,980 --> 00:46:53,460
you see that your basket is empty, your shopping basket is empty.

623
00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:58,180
You know, people will stay away from this site and they will no longer be shopping on

624
00:46:58,180 --> 00:46:59,180
your site.

625
00:46:59,180 --> 00:47:03,420
They will go look and look somewhere else, even if you are cheaper than that because they

626
00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:09,540
cannot be guaranteed that their shopping basket will not be emptied every single time.

627
00:47:09,540 --> 00:47:18,220
And they try to buy it is my money paid, yes or no, will I get my stuff that I ordered?

628
00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:20,100
It's all these things that come to play.

629
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:26,460
And this also comes with credibility of a brand, a key credibility of a platform.

630
00:47:26,460 --> 00:47:27,860
And certainly a front end.

631
00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:31,340
It's also the API that you're using.

632
00:47:31,340 --> 00:47:37,500
It's also about a trockling there.

633
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:43,700
On the other hand, you should also foresee the bypass on that because it doesn't always

634
00:47:43,700 --> 00:47:49,420
work in the direction of, ah, your customers need to be resilient for your customers.

635
00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:52,540
It also needs to be resilient for you.

636
00:47:52,540 --> 00:47:58,940
What happens if somebody tries to attack you and if you'll bring you down, right?

637
00:47:58,940 --> 00:48:02,580
That's also something that the denial of all that service is a reality, right?

638
00:48:02,580 --> 00:48:10,500
You see a lot of SMS or SMS attacks because SMS OTP is a very nice thing to do and if

639
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:12,420
you'll break your bank, right?

640
00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:16,340
Because every single SMS that you send out will cost you money and it will not cost the

641
00:48:16,340 --> 00:48:19,660
attacker's money.

642
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:20,660
Is that a good design pattern?

643
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:22,780
No, you try to do it in a different way.

644
00:48:22,780 --> 00:48:25,100
So it's all these little things that come to play.

645
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:31,180
If you have an API which is constantly being troubled and it will also trouble then your

646
00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:37,420
application that is actually like a, a details attack that you have on your, on your API,

647
00:48:37,420 --> 00:48:39,180
even it was not intended like that.

648
00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:41,420
So it's also a protection mechanism.

649
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:43,060
So it works in both directions.

650
00:48:43,060 --> 00:48:46,180
You want to make sure that you're protected, but also your customers are protected.

651
00:48:46,180 --> 00:48:49,180
It's not only about customer UX and experience.

652
00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:52,620
It's also about protecting the platform and making sure that everything is there.

653
00:48:52,620 --> 00:48:58,420
So as you can see, our shit actually is more than just of the parts that are moving.

654
00:48:58,420 --> 00:49:04,460
It's also protecting the parts encapsulating them, making sure they're safe, warm, well-nurtured,

655
00:49:04,460 --> 00:49:05,460
well monitored.

656
00:49:05,460 --> 00:49:08,860
Actually, you can see in our shit texture as a baby, right?

657
00:49:08,860 --> 00:49:10,420
It needs to grow.

658
00:49:10,420 --> 00:49:14,540
It needs to make sure that it gets warm and godly.

659
00:49:14,540 --> 00:49:16,500
It needs to be fed right on time.

660
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:21,500
It needs to be provided and all in all primary necessities.

661
00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:22,500
That's a thing.

662
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:25,500
And application of solutions are just the same thing.

663
00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:26,500
You need to nurture them.

664
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:27,500
You need to monitor them.

665
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:28,500
You need to feed them.

666
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:30,580
You need to make sure that they're safe.

667
00:49:30,580 --> 00:49:33,100
So that's basically what comes out.

668
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:34,100
Yeah.

669
00:49:34,100 --> 00:49:46,340
Or this was really cool, but I think what's about we like to get nearly the 100% and there's,

670
00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:56,140
I think it's not really new, but Microsoft allowed the multi-region architecture.

671
00:49:56,140 --> 00:50:02,860
For me, movie region, Asica sounds like.

672
00:50:02,860 --> 00:50:05,020
Yeah.

673
00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:11,380
It's the best result I can get.

674
00:50:11,380 --> 00:50:21,260
When multi-asica actually got a little bit wrong is the cost, is the data consensus, the

675
00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:28,420
agency is, so I don't know, application design, I don't know, I ask you, Mike.

676
00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:30,580
So we were talking about multi-regency.

677
00:50:30,580 --> 00:50:32,340
There's a couple of approaches that you can have.

678
00:50:32,340 --> 00:50:37,700
I do you do a failover or you do a full active active, just like you would do in the boss

679
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:41,220
in the data center where you have two servers and you have an active server.

680
00:50:41,220 --> 00:50:44,180
Or you switch on the other server only when you need it.

681
00:50:44,180 --> 00:50:46,140
It depends on the choices that you have.

682
00:50:46,140 --> 00:50:54,060
But again, comes down to the RTO, RPO, that discussion, SLA, resiliency, that part.

683
00:50:54,060 --> 00:50:59,580
Designing these are indeed more complex because you need to make sure what will I do with

684
00:50:59,580 --> 00:51:01,740
my data?

685
00:51:01,740 --> 00:51:03,620
How will I design that?

686
00:51:03,620 --> 00:51:08,940
Because, all right, I have now, for instance, I have an application which needs to stay

687
00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:10,420
on European soil.

688
00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:12,420
Okay, fine.

689
00:51:12,420 --> 00:51:16,580
I will take multiple European regions.

690
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:19,300
But I also have customers in the United States.

691
00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:27,100
Let's say, for instance, for some reason, an entire region goes down on the internet because

692
00:51:27,100 --> 00:51:32,860
somebody broke a main DNS or somebody broke an on the C cable which brought down the entire

693
00:51:32,860 --> 00:51:33,860
region.

694
00:51:33,860 --> 00:51:38,180
So there's no more USAID or no more South America, no India or whatever.

695
00:51:38,180 --> 00:51:43,020
Yeah, now we need to start looking into another multi-region design.

696
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:44,500
Can we go cross-boundary?

697
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:45,980
Can we move data?

698
00:51:45,980 --> 00:51:48,020
Can we are we allowed to?

699
00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:49,020
Right?

700
00:51:49,020 --> 00:51:51,100
So these are questions that you should ask yourself.

701
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:59,740
There is a good set of design patterns which Microsoft calls mission critical.

702
00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:01,940
And there's a full design set on that.

703
00:52:01,940 --> 00:52:09,820
There's actually, I think there's even an A-K-Aid on the miss on that, I don't know, by

704
00:52:09,820 --> 00:52:13,140
hard, I think it's mission critical.

705
00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:16,660
I can look it up.

706
00:52:16,660 --> 00:52:25,340
But there's a full design spec on that which actually allows you to add it through to

707
00:52:25,340 --> 00:52:26,860
allow should take it framework.

708
00:52:26,860 --> 00:52:33,740
And specifically for those scenarios you get additional things like multi-region but also

709
00:52:33,740 --> 00:52:37,900
multi-data, center multi-region, what with the data, how should I approach these, what are

710
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:41,540
the patterns behind it, what are design areas that are after it.

711
00:52:41,540 --> 00:52:45,940
We have indeed the data platform, we have the networking connectivity because, in typically

712
00:52:45,940 --> 00:52:55,380
you also start speaking about multi-outbreaks with the A-Kamon express routes.

713
00:52:55,380 --> 00:53:04,260
You have multiple hub spots, hub spoke designs on that level but you need to design multiple

714
00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:06,700
regions that way.

715
00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:11,580
You need to have a circuit breaker on networking level, you need to have a circuit breaker

716
00:53:11,580 --> 00:53:16,620
on the in-s level, you need to have a circuit breaker on public endpoints.

717
00:53:16,620 --> 00:53:20,780
The security will be different because you need to monitor on different levels.

718
00:53:20,780 --> 00:53:25,500
You also need to make sure that your security is being able to move on to another side so

719
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:30,020
that means that you need to have a multiple log analytics workspace available for that

720
00:53:30,020 --> 00:53:31,020
failovers on these.

721
00:53:31,020 --> 00:53:34,620
So it's all these things that come to play.

722
00:53:34,620 --> 00:53:37,260
Rishing critical gets you there.

723
00:53:37,260 --> 00:53:43,660
There's a full design methodology behind that and specifically on reliability that you're

724
00:53:43,660 --> 00:53:50,380
going to design it with resiliency into that.

725
00:53:50,380 --> 00:53:55,780
There's a design for zero downtime deployments making sure that you can just deploy in a snap

726
00:53:55,780 --> 00:53:58,820
without interfering with all the other stuff.

727
00:53:58,820 --> 00:54:05,380
Then we talk about infrastructure, code, CI/CD pipelines that can also be warmed up very

728
00:54:05,380 --> 00:54:11,140
quickly so that way you're there, and immediately, and that your design is actually basically stateless

729
00:54:11,140 --> 00:54:14,140
and that you can just push it from one side to another.

730
00:54:14,140 --> 00:54:18,340
It's all these things that come to play.

731
00:54:18,340 --> 00:54:26,180
It's actually pretty cool from an architecture point of view because there are so many gears

732
00:54:26,180 --> 00:54:32,020
involved that it's actually very nice to see but it also comes with a surgical complexity

733
00:54:32,020 --> 00:54:40,540
that people need to be able to grasp it in a really correct way.

734
00:54:40,540 --> 00:54:44,100
That's the biggest issue, typically with mission critical.

735
00:54:44,100 --> 00:54:47,340
But there's design patterns to that as such.

736
00:54:47,340 --> 00:54:59,340
It's a really interesting question, Microsoft and all these other vendors deliver design

737
00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:04,420
patterns for how secure stuff.

738
00:55:04,420 --> 00:55:15,020
When I'm a hacker, I can look at these guys or these patterns, not secure.

739
00:55:15,020 --> 00:55:18,260
So this is my tech part.

740
00:55:18,260 --> 00:55:25,980
And I think a little bit about ROM somewhere or what I see is ROM somewhere.

741
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:27,460
It's cool.

742
00:55:27,460 --> 00:55:30,140
I can talk a long time about it.

743
00:55:30,140 --> 00:55:43,540
But what really, what Microsoft really have an issue is the identity, the complexity, I

744
00:55:43,540 --> 00:55:45,580
say, hey, I'm Mercopeaters.

745
00:55:45,580 --> 00:55:48,860
I started with this a while ago.

746
00:55:48,860 --> 00:55:50,900
Hey, I am from the University.

747
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:58,900
Can you give me the name for the professor that I call him and I get online every?

748
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:10,860
What was Microsoft or the Azure do in this compromised?

749
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:12,860
You mean like social engineering?

750
00:56:12,860 --> 00:56:16,620
Why is there more like?

751
00:56:16,620 --> 00:56:21,260
It's actually a good one.

752
00:56:21,260 --> 00:56:29,540
Microsoft has the security response center and they're actively monitoring a lot of things.

753
00:56:29,540 --> 00:56:38,340
If identity gets compromised at scale, they will probably know it before you know it.

754
00:56:38,340 --> 00:56:43,820
And again, there's a lot of things that you need to put up play to the responsibility also

755
00:56:43,820 --> 00:56:45,940
comes in your hand, right?

756
00:56:45,940 --> 00:56:51,340
Microsoft does a lot of work when it comes down to threat management and they have a threat

757
00:56:51,340 --> 00:56:57,740
intelligence center, which is looking actively at hacker groups and in all these ransomware

758
00:56:57,740 --> 00:57:01,340
groups.

759
00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:04,820
But it also depends on the design that you have.

760
00:57:04,820 --> 00:57:09,580
I am, for instance, I hate VMs just because of that reason.

761
00:57:09,580 --> 00:57:14,780
A VM is a liability because you still have to patch it yourself.

762
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:16,500
Somebody can log into it.

763
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:21,140
You typically cannot see it that somebody logged into it unless you are monitoring in a

764
00:57:21,140 --> 00:57:27,100
correct way, but even that the noise is getting lost in the bigger noise of the entire solution.

765
00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:29,020
So you don't always see that.

766
00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:33,820
So your first defense becomes your identity, but a lot of people just come in with a local

767
00:57:33,820 --> 00:57:37,220
user on a server where there's still a portal.

768
00:57:37,220 --> 00:57:38,620
And so people can just enter it.

769
00:57:38,620 --> 00:57:45,420
And before you know, they just confirm the entire VM, the entire network and so on and so on.

770
00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:51,340
Microsoft will be able to help you or assist you in his kind of attacks, but a lot of responsibility

771
00:57:51,340 --> 00:57:52,940
also lies on your hands.

772
00:57:52,940 --> 00:57:54,820
Are you monitoring correctly?

773
00:57:54,820 --> 00:58:01,140
The things installed like conditional access, do you have multifactor authentication?

774
00:58:01,140 --> 00:58:09,140
It's not for a no reason that Microsoft enforces now MFA on intra identity that it forces you

775
00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:15,620
to use pass keys on all your identity systems nowadays, just like any other security vendor

776
00:58:15,620 --> 00:58:19,020
or any other identity vendor for that matter.

777
00:58:19,020 --> 00:58:22,220
So it's all these things that come to play.

778
00:58:22,220 --> 00:58:30,020
Microsoft has the security response center, also the threat intelligence center.

779
00:58:30,020 --> 00:58:36,620
And they try to work with large customers on that level, but a lot of responsibility still

780
00:58:36,620 --> 00:58:43,380
ends up on your lap because you still need to have a good insight on what has been deployed.

781
00:58:43,380 --> 00:58:47,380
Microsoft can only just do as much stay, stay at the late look.

782
00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:49,660
We have found the CV in this software.

783
00:58:49,660 --> 00:58:52,740
We have packages that are gone rogue.

784
00:58:52,740 --> 00:58:58,660
We have a we have fixed an issue on the Azure port over tokens can get stolen.

785
00:58:58,660 --> 00:59:03,220
For instance, not saying that it is a fact, but these things happen, right?

786
00:59:03,220 --> 00:59:07,020
Everybody's guilty about because you building software, there's always liabilities and there's

787
00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:08,220
always dependencies.

788
00:59:08,220 --> 00:59:14,340
If you're building something at scale, anybody is vulnerable to it, where it's a cloud vendor,

789
00:59:14,340 --> 00:59:21,580
whether it's an AI vendor, whether it's a gaming industry part, there's always something

790
00:59:21,580 --> 00:59:25,420
which is vulnerable that nobody discovered yet.

791
00:59:25,420 --> 00:59:27,940
And there's always an entry point.

792
00:59:27,940 --> 00:59:32,260
And these companies can just do as much as that.

793
00:59:32,260 --> 00:59:40,100
They have no 100% guarantee that they will give you 100% safety.

794
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:45,060
It's just like within the delay, they give you as much safety as possible.

795
00:59:45,060 --> 00:59:47,980
But it comes with a grain of salt.

796
00:59:47,980 --> 00:59:52,820
Ask within anybody as within anything else.

797
00:59:52,820 --> 00:59:53,820
Awesome.

798
00:59:53,820 --> 01:00:01,180
I think a little about, yeah, normally I have a rapid fire round.

799
01:00:01,180 --> 01:00:10,260
I ask your short questions or ask a question.

800
01:00:10,260 --> 01:00:12,260
And you give a short answer.

801
01:00:12,260 --> 01:00:13,780
Okay, I try to.

802
01:00:13,780 --> 01:00:17,740
It's just okay when it's longer.

803
01:00:17,740 --> 01:00:18,740
We have.

804
01:00:18,740 --> 01:00:21,540
I have a lot of time.

805
01:00:21,540 --> 01:00:22,540
Perfect.

806
01:00:22,540 --> 01:00:31,300
So, human needs is for application with three microservices, which one?

807
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:33,860
So come again, sorry?

808
01:00:33,860 --> 01:00:40,580
My Kubernetes for applications with three microservices.

809
01:00:40,580 --> 01:00:42,580
With three microservices.

810
01:00:42,580 --> 01:00:48,860
A user, no, or should you or should you not?

811
01:00:48,860 --> 01:00:54,900
You get through everything you are on single island and you have only.

812
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:57,180
It's just free microservices.

813
01:00:57,180 --> 01:01:00,940
Then Kubernetes is a little bit too bloated for that.

814
01:01:00,940 --> 01:01:07,220
I would say no, don't go for that and just run it as a function or run it as an app service.

815
01:01:07,220 --> 01:01:10,100
It's going to be cheaper too.

816
01:01:10,100 --> 01:01:13,860
Yeah, you still a little bit out of the transmission.

817
01:01:13,860 --> 01:01:15,980
Okay, I understand.

818
01:01:15,980 --> 01:01:19,620
I come from you, Cryatman, 99.99.

819
01:01:19,620 --> 01:01:20,580
99.99.

820
01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:25,620
Is there ever a way of it?

821
01:01:25,620 --> 01:01:28,620
But we're choosing what the region cost.

822
01:01:28,620 --> 01:01:33,620
What's your answer?

823
01:01:33,620 --> 01:01:37,740
Good question.

824
01:01:37,740 --> 01:01:38,940
Repeat it?

825
01:01:38,940 --> 01:01:41,260
So a company has 99.

826
01:01:41,260 --> 01:01:47,980
99.99, you can make it a long time.

827
01:01:47,980 --> 01:01:53,660
Available, but they refuse to pay for the multi-region.

828
01:01:53,660 --> 01:01:55,540
What's your answer?

829
01:01:55,540 --> 01:01:58,260
Yeah, that part doesn't get.

830
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:01,420
I would say good luck.

831
01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:05,020
I love it.

832
01:02:05,020 --> 01:02:10,660
At that base, back up has never been restored.

833
01:02:10,660 --> 01:02:12,020
MNCS previously.

834
01:02:12,020 --> 01:02:13,020
Good luck.

835
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:20,900
You should always test mistakes.

836
01:02:20,900 --> 01:02:27,140
If you called, no, no, no, no, no, my favorite question.

837
01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:32,060
Safial Dalia called you and said, Mike, A, all cool.

838
01:02:32,060 --> 01:02:38,500
I give you all the responsibilities and the money to develop something you like, which

839
01:02:38,500 --> 01:02:40,860
feature will it be?

840
01:02:40,860 --> 01:02:44,260
A feature or a service?

841
01:02:44,260 --> 01:02:46,060
You are free.

842
01:02:46,060 --> 01:02:49,740
I love it.

843
01:02:49,740 --> 01:02:57,980
Oh, I would say one of my web dreams is still to have a full graphical designer to design

844
01:02:57,980 --> 01:03:05,300
architecture, like a real designing in a graphical way your Azure architecture and that you

845
01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:09,980
also can immediately deploy the applications that you need for that.

846
01:03:09,980 --> 01:03:11,300
That would be cool.

847
01:03:11,300 --> 01:03:19,580
So think of a visual like, but then specifically for Azure, plugging in things and making it simple

848
01:03:19,580 --> 01:03:23,340
and stupid, but also based upon well architecture.

849
01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:30,580
And actually come to think of it, shouldn't be that hard to build nowadays with AI, right?

850
01:03:30,580 --> 01:03:32,580
Yeah.

851
01:03:32,580 --> 01:03:37,740
Yeah, yeah, this AI stuff.

852
01:03:37,740 --> 01:03:47,900
What did you think about Kubernetes for applications with our or should we use Microsoft, Microsoft?

853
01:03:47,900 --> 01:03:50,460
What's your own stuff, Mike?

854
01:03:50,460 --> 01:03:57,380
It really depends on the scale that you need, but also the complexity because Kubernetes is

855
01:03:57,380 --> 01:03:59,820
like steep learning curve.

856
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:02,180
And if you have never done it, stay away from it.

857
01:04:02,180 --> 01:04:06,460
If you just want to focus on the applications and please go with container services or just

858
01:04:06,460 --> 01:04:11,980
app services and run it as a container there, I mean, depending on the use case, I would

859
01:04:11,980 --> 01:04:12,980
say.

860
01:04:12,980 --> 01:04:20,900
Mike, this was also awesome experience.

861
01:04:20,900 --> 01:04:31,020
I think, yeah, we have learned so much about Azure and applications and we are not believe

862
01:04:31,020 --> 01:04:32,020
it.

863
01:04:32,020 --> 01:04:39,340
I think I believe, but we believe of the percent of available time.

864
01:04:39,340 --> 01:04:41,020
Thank you so much.

865
01:04:41,020 --> 01:04:44,180
It's more a great interview with you.

866
01:04:44,180 --> 01:04:46,020
Yeah, it was great to make her.

867
01:04:46,020 --> 01:04:47,020
Thank you for having me.

868
01:04:47,020 --> 01:04:48,700
It was, it was my pleasure.

869
01:04:48,700 --> 01:04:53,420
It was also funny that we talked about resilience and that my internet went down during the

870
01:04:53,420 --> 01:04:54,420
discussions.

871
01:04:54,420 --> 01:04:58,020
That made it even made it more more powerful.

872
01:04:58,020 --> 01:04:59,980
Yeah, that's a thing.

873
01:04:59,980 --> 01:05:03,380
So that made it even more sarcastic and ironic, right?

874
01:05:03,380 --> 01:05:05,300
So that's a lot of fun.

875
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:10,740
No, thank you for having me and yeah, I'm looking forward when this thing comes online.

876
01:05:10,740 --> 01:05:10,940
Thank you.

877
01:05:10,940 --> 01:05:29,780
[ Music ]