Microsoft 365 Copilot Without the Hype: Adoption, Governance & Getting Your Tenant Ready with Paul Keijzers [MVP]

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Yeah, welcome back to another episode of the MC65 as a podcast.

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Today we are talking about one of the biggest questions facing Microsoft 365 organizations

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right now.

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Are you actually ready for co-pilot because buying license is easy, but what happens

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when co-pilot suddenly has access to years of SharePoint sites, TeamsCon version conversations,

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documents, permissions, language, the content and information that perhaps should never

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have been shared in the first place.

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My guest today is Paul Kiosz.

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A time Microsoft MVP and founder of KB Works, Paul has spent more than 20 years in the

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Microsoft ecosystem helping global organizations improve the way they use Microsoft 365 from

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SharePoint and Teams architecture to security, Microsoft, PUE, View, governance and co-pilot

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adoption.

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His focus isn't simply on the deploying technology, it's about turning Microsoft 365 and co-pilot

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into something organizations can actually measure.

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His waste time, better productivity and lower risk.

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Paul also runs an intensive focused weeks in Portugal where customers work directly with

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him on some of their thoughtless Microsoft 365 and co-pilot challenges.

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So today we are going beyond co-pilot demos.

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We are talking about what happens before co-pilot arrives by co-pilot fails, where oversharing

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becomes dangerous, how PUE View fits into the picture and how organization can prove whatever

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it's actually the lower value.

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Paul, welcome to the LCC-65FM podcast.

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Thank you, thank you.

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It was a big introduction.

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I'm not used to such a big introduction, yes.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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Yeah, Paul, it's amazing.

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You are working around 20 years in the Microsoft ecosystem.

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Where did your journey organically start?

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Well, my first start was actually not in IT.

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I was 21 when I started and it was in Card Audio.

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So you know, those big boom boxes around the road in the early 2000s or even earlier.

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Where people had big boxes, that's where I started and I started my own company in that.

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But after like three, four years it was hard because the innovation became better for

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the cars.

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So then I had to move along and then I started at an insurance company where I was just

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doing manual work and they saw, hey, you have some, how do you say that, feeling with IT.

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So don't you want to work for our department?

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Okay, I want to.

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And that's where the journey started.

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After a while they had to reorganize, so I had to go and then I went to another IT company

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and that was in 2001 when I first touched the SharePoint ecosystem.

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So I was doing VBA and lots of people with branding and then SharePoint came along and the

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first steps were only like versioning.

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So just check in, check out, that was it and it was still buggy but it was a good first

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step.

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And after that I went to several other companies and in 2007 I really picked up again my own

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company but different name of course, but really into SharePoint and then I did some migrations

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of 2003 to 2007 and that's where I really started to feeling with SharePoint and do some more

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coding on that and the web parts and I did some things for big education schools there

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and then in 2010 and I 2009 I went to the first or no it was a second.

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And then I got to the SharePoint conference in Las Vegas and that's where I met a lot of

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people and I even got more hooked to SharePoint and also the community because it's, SharePoint

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has a really great community and then later on I went to a big bank also for my own but

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I did do a lot of internet parts and at the time SharePoint 2010 and then we got BayPos

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around 2011 to 2012 I think which is originally the name of Office 365 so they renamed it, rebranded

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well as we know every year there's a rename of products and after that I went more and more

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into the clouds and then in 2016 I got the first time MVP awards and at that time I was

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working with Wurthel, Microsoft Partner, a very nice company as well but that was a time

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that I was working for them not for my own and I fully focused on Microsoft Teams at the

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time which was brand new in 2017 so lots of work in there and especially what we see now

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and still see is the way they set up for example their storage which is still in the background

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SharePoint so that's what I did a long time, a focus on Microsoft Teams especially because they

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improved a lot during the years and you see more usage and then actually late when it was

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it, well when co-part it came out I directly, I was at the at the different bank working and they

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were Early Access Partner so then I had the chance to jump on the wagon and go along with

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the co-pilot Early Access so that was really a very good start for me and yeah and at that

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time I took all the knowledge I could of co-pilot with me but a lot has changed since then of course

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because it was also the first versions and everybody was searching okay how do we implement what do we

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need to take care of and yeah basically a lot of companies use it for outlook still because it's

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easy to use in outlook but lately we see how do you say that something coming back is SharePoint

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and people are using more and more SharePoint although some don't even know that but they are

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and lots of Office 365 components are really built on SharePoint and that's something not a lot of

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people know. Most people think it's just a server-like environment but a lot is hosted within the

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SharePoint environment so it's really important to have your governance up to date there and especially

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you already mentioned it in the intro when you take a look at your file storage and there's not

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a lot changed to be honest since 2016 when Delph came out because I don't know do you know Delph?

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It's not I never really worked with it I only hear this.

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Okay maybe I explain a little bit about that because lots of people think it's only the

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governance got really important when co-pilot came out but it was already in 2006 actually when

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you start a project it's already important but most people didn't care about it but now with co-pilot

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it surfaces easier but when Delph came out Delph is made by the craft team and it was made to

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let people see what are other colleagues working on so when you would share something with the

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organization it would surface up into the to Delph so you would already see it but most people didn't

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care of it or they shut down Delph because Delph was if you turned off Delph you would also turn off

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graph so problem gone but that was like just an easy thing to do but later on during the years more

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and more services were accessible via graph so then you had to make a decision okay do we keep Delph

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off or are we going to do Delph and then even in the mid-time there was a switch for a graph

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so then you could change a lot of things but with co-pilot now it's really like it's surfacing so

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people try to query it and you don't want to turn off co-pilot because that's what the business

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wants so now it's not that easy as in within Delph where you just turn off the knob and then it was

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gone now you have to be careful and what I see in daily life so to say yeah that's cool

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they're directly dive into co-pilot so I think Microsoft co-pilot looks

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incredibly simple for from end user perspective you open an application type or prompt get an answer

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but behind the simple interface there's enormous amount of Microsoft 365 info structure

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what are companies underestimated when they start with their co-pilot journey

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well as I already a bit told in the in the earlier stages they forget about permissions they forget

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about retention they forget about a DLP they forget about the labeling aspect so when they start off

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and some take it seriously so it's not all bad but a lot of companies just take off they buy some licenses

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co-pilot they start and they they see that some data is there but they don't care till there's something like

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how do you say that salaries that's coming up and people may not know it or something else that comes

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up because it was shared with the whole company so basically the first setting I always look at is

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the how the sharing is configured so if it's new guests and guests or is it allow everyone which is

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mostly used in a new environment or small companies because they just don't know it

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so that's that's the start where where I always look and then I have to talk to them and see what

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what they really need and if they really want everyone to be part of this sharing experience

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so I think that's the the the first start that's going well where there's problems let's

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put it that way and they surface once they start with co-pilot and not when they just you share

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search it doesn't yeah you can still find it but it's hard let's put it that way

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awesome I think we have to talk or we have to look more into the Microsoft 365 tunnel

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not only at the co-pilot so what does the co-pilot run in ready tenants actually mean for you

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oh a co-pilot is ready 10 means that the at least your data structures and labels

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the DLP is in order and even further which is not my expertise area but like in

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June defender you all have to set it up because I think when you are going to work with a product like

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this you want to have everything correctly in place and of course you can skip the defender

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and the in-tune part but still it's I think is very very important especially the bigger the company

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the more problems that arise there and that it's not my expertise there so that's why I say this but

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I think that there are many people who know a lot about this as well yeah I think what's one of

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your topics is SharePoints so and I think many organizations have been running SharePoint for 10 15

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or even 20 years what happened when co-pilot meets the all this historical content and how to avoid

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the the broad problem with co-pilot from your perspective yeah I see that as well that companies

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that are using like from 2013 onwards or even earlier but then migrated to SharePoint on

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line that files are old so files that are not archived or the still there are lots of and this is

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really important you know there are lots of files that are just migrated from a file several in 2010

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I don't know it doesn't matter but it's all data but it's not archived and it's got like version number one

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version number two no made the data anything and what co-pilot does it just looks at the data

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so when you query something and it finds that file of 2010 version one but you also have a version

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13 or 30 it will check both documents or files and then it will surface it if it's correct that's

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on to you but this problem is one of the big problems at the moment that companies start to use

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the co-pilot they think they only have the correct data but also the data the data may seem correct

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but if it's old versions you can still not use it and then it looks like co-pilot is hallucinating

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but it's not it's purely on your own data I think in Germany we have yeah we have when we start

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the project we all data we have yeah have stay for for the next 10 years so it's for the documentation

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it also means we have this to yeah if the the last from close projects for yeah

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well that's data from from the last 10 years so what's the best way to to to handle this year

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old projects or old data that that must say in in the company

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yeah it depends on how how many times this data still needs to be accessed because if it doesn't

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need to be accessed anymore it still needs to exist you can archive it within the Office 365

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suite and then it doesn't surface in the co-pilot but you could also restrict it from co-pilot to get

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access to it so if you restrict it it will not show up in in the co-pilot results so there are

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several ways to do this and of course it's depending on how the site structure is because what I also

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see is you say okay we have data we have to keep it 10 years but we just go on in the same site we

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just build our our complete folder structure and then we call it the different year and that's

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that's a harder part because then you really have to check okay we can archive sites but on file

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level it's it's a bit different and you have to check okay how are we going to do that and what do

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we really want to surface in in co-pilot or search because for me co-pilot is still like search it's

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only you give it a normal speech but it's still like search for me yeah that's interesting so

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I think a lot of companies say oh storage it's it's cheap let let keep let keep everything here but

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what or how do you say or what's the best practice for for content lifecycle management

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for co-pilot readiness from your perspective I think it really depends per company because you

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cannot say okay this works for this company and this works for this company because for example

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you say storage is cheap but I'm not agreeing on that because I think the storage is still

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very expensive on SharePoint actually so you would need to check depending of course of the size of

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your of your company but I would even look into blob storage for example or use the office 365 backup

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or use a third party tool that you that backup your data on a on a blob storage and

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talking about backup it's really important that you have a backup partner that backup your data

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but also restores it that's one but the other one which all companies forget is what if I want to

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leave this third party to another third party what is going to happen to my backup and I was a bit

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surprised by some companies that have like really high fees to get your own data back so this is

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something you have to look out for I think it's really important to look at that I think a

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melatopic a lot of companies talking about it's it's oversharing how how how will you define

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oversharing and what did you think is the biggest source of yeah of oversharing is it's a SharePoint

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is a team is one drive by so that my across of 365 groups or what did you think it depends I think it's

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I think it starts by looking at your settings if if allow everyone is on for example which is the

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base one yeah then you you have a big chances of oversharing especially on the SharePoint side

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and I think when you look now when you have one copied license you also have this advanced

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dashboard in the SharePoint admin center where you can get your oversharing reports and they give you

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good insight on how your sites are used and where the oversharing is taking place it sometimes it

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may not be correct in in the way it's rational so it sees that it's overshared but sometimes this

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can be for example I know some companies that use it for marketing data they just share it with

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other companies and then it's shown as oversharing but it's actually not it's it's just the way it's set up

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but yes this these reports really give you a good insight on on the sharing and where it's taking

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place and this is done across because SharePoint is the base it's done across the the teams the one

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drive and SharePoint so there's no no reason not to look into that I think when you when you when

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you have a copied license check into that I even sometimes say to companies if you only have one

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copied license you already get this extra features so that could be worth it for a whole company

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especially if it's a big company yeah I think one of the yeah Microsoft tools that that helps it's

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a peer view absolutely yeah peer view it's it's I don't know what's the right thing peer view

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modules solutions there are so many there's the information protection the DLP the DSPM the data

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lifecycle management you discovery compliance manager and the data governance we fight catalog

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what are important for for for co-pilot when well what what did I have as minimum

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requirement to look then into QVU well I do some peer view but I don't do all the per view but

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I think for copilot it's important to look at the labels so what do the labels say

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and have you set up the labels that's the first question of course and if you have set it up if

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is it applied do you have auto labeling on or not I think that are the basics on SharePoint side

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but on DLP and then we are talking first per view is like personal information like

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and that's also depending on which company because if it's an international company you have a lot

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of DLP policies but if it's like a ditch company or a German company you know okay no credit cards no

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physical numbers that kind of stuff you don't want to share it out that's what DLP can do but there's

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one thing that a lot of people again miss and it's not on the per view side it's more in the power

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automate side and that's the DLP on the power automate side because when you use copilot and you

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want to use connectors for example to Gira or to whatever you have you have to configure them in

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in the power automate DLP so and that's a different story it's something I wasn't aware of like two

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years ago but and nowadays I see it a lot and I see a lot of things happening in a default environment

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but also with advanced connectors and rules that's a whole new world for me but it's a very nice world

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very big world with lots of things changing because they see oh we should have done this

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so there's a lot of things going on there and then that's because it's also called DLP you can get

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mixed up really fast so and from the per view I focus on the labels and the DLP within

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per view but of course there's much more in there like the retention etc. Yes.

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Did you think copilot change how we should design SharePoint architecture or can we use the

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classics like I think for years we talk about information architecture or metadata, content

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types, subsides, taxidermy and search. Do these concepts become more important or less important

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when I can understand I think your natural language? Well I think they are becoming more important

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again instead of less important and there's a little bit of history because when teams came out

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you had this general folder in your SharePoint library and I must be honest I did not like it

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in there because it fully trolled the structure of how you set up SharePoint it's a total different

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way and a lot of people were a bit disappointed to say the least but then with teams we were working

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more again to a folder structure because teams was like that but I think when we look now I would say

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metadata is really important to have the correct data coming out and that not alone but if you

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in my opinion when I look at SharePoint libraries or team libraries doesn't matter I always say

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maximum three folders deep and the rest metadata but also like three or four fields maximum

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because if you do too much of metadata the people will not fill it in and now with co-pilot it can

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even look at your data and make the columns itself and then we also come to a point where we have to

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say okay this is a repeating order so then we have to set up content types which are also really

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important in the in the co-pilot space but also in the search space because a lot of people

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forget that as well. Yeah yeah I think one one thing it's oh we have the IT they have their work

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to do to make co-pilot ready but there it's also the employees I think the normal users I say

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marketing sales and so on. So I think we have the governance questions I think it's most IT and

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the other side I say it's the adoption part. What separates organization that gets strong co-pilot

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adoption from those that don't? Well especially the companies I've seen and a few have really good

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adoption because what they do they inform their clients how to get work done easier and with

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tips every day but also like not only co-pilot but also agents how to use them what are the best

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prompts to use and they organize like days in the company where you can check out what

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what agents they use or how they prompt it so they are really good and they you see like an adoption

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grade of or above 90% but there are also companies that just do like a day and then you get all

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information at once like they throw a full bucket of of trash over you and you have to figure out

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how it works the day after so they are doing not as well but you have to be careful with it because

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if you keep in contact with the business you will have much more of attraction not only from

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a IT perspective but also from the business side because once people see that there is a team

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constantly involved and helping them to get better it goes around in the company and people get

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better instead of one time this is it and a lot of things that in adoption land happens and I

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did it as well I haven't turned on to blame anybody but it's like this is this knob is for this this

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knob is for that but I think the better adoption practices are why would I use this and what is the

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outcome what can I expect and I think it's when you go to a company and you want to improve the

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adoption ask them how they work on the daily base what are the first stations that they have on a

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daily base and then check if you can create that something with copilot to improve like one hour to

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our day or a week because you can really improve your your work with copilot but you need to know exactly

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how to use it and that's that's the hardest part and especially because we have like

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weekly we have like 25 updates or something like that so it's not only like okay I know now copilot

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and I'm done no and next week it looks different and a good example is for example the the work

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editor or PowerPoint where you first had like you had the in PowerPoint you could

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prompt a copilot chat and it would do only in the side it would generate something now you can

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edit it and during the first times prompts for people just before summer you had to choose

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in the prompts which brand kit you were going to use if you use it brand kit of course but now you

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can already pre-select it from with the plus sign which makes it way much easier and just to prompt

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what you want in your PowerPoint and that's all those little skills they are they they make your work

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so much easier okay I think what did you think about the yeah I say the copilot champion

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program what did you think about it and and what did you think are here the best practice

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I think the copilot champion program is already good is a good start let's put it that way but you

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always have to check on how your company is working and if it's going as you planned and if it's

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the same as the the AI adoption plan for Microsoft because a lot of adoption plans that are made are not

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are for really big big companies which some companies with 25 people they won't use it it's

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it's too much and I think it's really important to look at that what does my company need does it need

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the AI adoption plan for Microsoft which is free by the way so you can just use it but I would rather

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make a combination of that like look at the adoption plan and take a little bit of that and create

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full plan for your organization and challenge users challenge if they they like it or not and what

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they think about this adoption program I think what also interesting is I think at the start the

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copilot it was really simple if the CFO came in and asked me yeah make sense to pay for copilot and

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then I are simply asked okay how many hours your employee saved and he say six okay then I say okay

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you pay 30 dollars it's it's five dollars per hour did you pay your employees more than more than five

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dollars than yes if less no so but now we get the the price thing with different tokens and so on

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yes yeah what what I heard in a different podcast with different people who do a lot of it AI

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really focus on only AI and they do it with different brands so it's a cloud and

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chat GBT but they they say that about it should be like two to three percent of the payment of

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the salary should be considered to be used on AI so like two to three present if somebody has a

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salary then it would be reserved for cost of AI for example co-work for a clot or any other

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AI system because people can learn more and more if they have like a budget on on their hand

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which they can spend on and this is something that's completely new of course because we are not

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used to spend so much on software for employees at least not in this way let's put it that way

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so I think that's a good thing if people would do that because you will see that they will adopt

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also more and more if they are aware so you have to get them aware of the situation

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and I think especially for example the copilot license is about 30 euros and 30 dollars 30 euros

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but with co-work you are talking tokens and with Microsoft Scout you are also talking tokens

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and the token thing is a whole different story whole different thing to talk about because

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if we look at co-work the first time I tried it out the amount of tokens I burned was immense

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so I thought okay what's going on here especially because we were in front there which means

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you can pre-use it then it was free and then first of July 26 they started to price you

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and when I did it then it was like really expensive and I thought okay I leave it for a while

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and then I went back like three weeks later and then it was like really cheap cheap and that's not

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only because co-work we came cheap but also because you have to be aware if you use co-work and it's on auto

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it will choose the model that's most suitable for your prompt but if you

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use co-work and you for example use clot opus 4.8 which is less than 5 a faible your cost will drop

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their mast dramatically so have a look at that if you want to do it but also there does this

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learning curve because if people start and they don't know this they will use faible 5 or

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astra from chatchipity to get the results and if they are not aware they will use co-work as co-pilot

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because there's also a chat in there so why not use it there and they are not aware of the cost

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so then you are getting into trouble let's put it that way

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I think what or we have started with co-pilot with prompt engineering doing prompts but now we

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yeah we have the the next era and I say it's the agent world and there are agents that say other

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agents to do this and that what's your view view on agents

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well I think agents can be very powerful and I heard a talk from missiel barman a few weeks back

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also in a podcast and he was talking about the Microsoft organization where they have

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enabled Microsoft's card for everyone and of course they have a earlier version so they eat their

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own dog food so to say but what he was telling me and or telling in the podcast he was telling that

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they have several everybody has a Microsoft scout session and those Microsoft scout sessions they

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are starting to talk to each other so they are agents talking to each other and they even show up in

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their organization profile so when you go into teams you can look at who's where in the organization

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and now even Microsoft scout agents show up there and you can talk to them directly so

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you can have like a question on one side from for me for example and I want to ask it to missiel

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and then missiel's agents pick it up and they say okay we can do that without disturbing missiel

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and putting it back to me so I think the future will be more like that but it can also be a danger

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because yeah we we are going to do a more AI way of working and once they start talking you still

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have to input them but once you stop inputting them and they can do everything you can do

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it can be a danger that's pretty that way. I think that's yeah I could be really critical but

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what did you think about yeah I think something like an agent center of excellence or AI center

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I don't know how we got there there is already one the the agent 365 is already a it is another

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license which at the moment I'm getting crazy about all those licenses that they come up with

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but within your admin center you also already have a agent 365 where you can view all your agents

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that are deployed in your environment even once you don't know because sometimes you don't know them

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and you can administrative them from there but also monitor them and even give permission from there

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so that's a really nice admin center I must say there are also third parties again

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that have similar functionality but cheaper and even sometimes more functionality so I would look

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I won't look will tell you not only to look at agent 365 but also look at third parties because

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although Microsoft works on it but third parties are most most of the time they are more

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innovative so they are more ahead of time and because they do it on the third party they can

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deliver it for a cheaper price yeah yeah and they have something that's yeah if you have these these

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what I read you from interesting you're you're originally from from from the Netherlands and then

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you go to Portugal and you have something you call it the focus week concept can you tell us a little

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bit about what is this as something to do with scope pilot or yes well what I we moved in 2023 to

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Portugal and at that time I did not know I was going to stay here but after three weeks we decided to

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stay here and now we have our own guesthouse as well on the land where we live and what I do in the

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focus week is actually you you start with how you want to do copilot or sharepoint and you you

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are going to go a week with me focusing only on copilot on sharepoint how to deploy it make

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you governance or make your development doesn't matter I'm here to help you then and what we do is in

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the morning we do the sessions in the afternoon you can go for a surf or you can go to the beach

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depending on what you like or go for a hiking we have great hiking trails so it's the thing is when

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you are in a company you are in a company so people come and disturb you all the time but when you

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go out of the company and you go somewhere else and you have the focus on it and you don't get

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disturbed by your colleagues you make search a lot of progress compared to in company and that's

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why I thought okay I have to make this and I like that people then come here as well and we can have

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a chat and we can check how we can improve everything of the company so yeah that's that's the thing

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what came up with me and I do a lot of surfing as well myself so yeah that's why I say it's a really good

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combination and you get back refreshed with the full program or a full list of things you can do

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or you are already ready to work on it with with the rest of your team or your company yeah

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awesome yeah that's that's that's I think yeah that that makes sense and you have the better

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better or more sunny weather than than we in middle Europe yes yes I'm I'm originally from Amsterdam

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or at least from the Netherlands I'm not an Amsterdam but from Aintova area but I lived a long time

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in Amsterdam so I know exactly the differences and just the weather is most of the time it's great

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we have 60 days of rain on a normal year so yeah I can I cannot complain but by the Netherlands

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the better you are parties yeah absolutely yeah cool I have yeah I say in every interview

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yeah I say rapid fire round I give you a short question and you give a short short answer so

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SharePoint or teams I would say teams at the moment okay co-pilot co-pilot studio or AI foundry

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co-pilot studio governance before adoption or adoption before governance

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all the way around and governance before adoption what what is the most underrated Microsoft 365 feature

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oh that's a good one

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early a days I would say one now but nowadays I would say much probably loop

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because I think loop is great it really works really well yeah it starts so simple and now it's such a

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powerful tool it's it's real it's really amazing how old is this evolved and so what's your

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five favorite co-pilot use case

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well I use it a lot for my own marketing as well so I think is is not early for in-company but also for

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your marketing it's a great tool but I also use it to keep me informed about things I still need to do

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things I forget that it just reminds me and what I also do is a lot of skills so

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we didn't talk about skills but a skill is like something like a standard operating procedure you

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every time repeat the same order a skill can do that so I love skills all my short videos that I

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post on youtube instagram and tiktok are actually done with AI so I speak normally but the editing is

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done by AI I'm not doing anything and it amazed me how much time I say for that so and then

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what do we have more yeah I use it also for myself for my CRM everything on that yeah it's hard to say

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okay this side of five use cases because there are many use cases to talk about and I think it

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also this is like each company has different use cases and some things that sound so logic

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they and you think okay yeah this isn't done in copage yet or there's no agent for that okay let's

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make a agent for that yeah when satanidalya calls you and say hey Paul you get all the money and

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resources to develop your dream feature and copilot what would it be to be honest I wouldn't know now

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I really don't know no no I couldn't answer your questions sorry okay okay who should I invite next

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and what questions should I ask I think it would be interesting to invite Vincent Clayis is a new

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MVP he's a Belgium guy living also in Portugal and he's on the adoption side so I think it would be

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really nice to hear his stories on adoption and where people yeah miss their tricks let's put it

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that way I also have a podcast with him but he's really nice and I think the main question is it

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would be like how do you do adoption in a multi multi country tenancy something like that

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because I think it's still lots of people can learn from him

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and finally if I tealed I listened to this episode we remember one thing about preparing

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Microsoft 365 for copilot what should it be I would start with the sharing settings I think that's

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a really important part to start with and to remember yeah then Paul thank you for for joining me today

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I think the biggest takeaway from the today session is that copilot readiness isn't really a

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copilot project it's Microsoft 365 project it's understand your share point environment

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it's understand who can access what it's yeah dealing with oversharing it's yeah building

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information protection strategy with technology such Microsoft PueView and yeah sensitivity labels

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and yeah then it's making sure people actually have real business problems where copilot can make

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a measurable difference so yeah for all the people you find all the links to Paul's podcast and

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to Paul's linked it profiles and other things in the show notes from the m65fmp podcast page and yeah

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which thank you podcast as Microsoft MEP found out kbworks for for joining us

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thank you it's all not to be here

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