Copilot Inherits Your Mess: Modernizing Microsoft 365 for AI with Richard Harbridge [MVP]

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Welcome back everybody to the MC65 and then podcasts.

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Microsoft co-pilot doesn't arrive in the clean Microsoft

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365 temp it's arrived in an I went environment.

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You have been building for years,

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all share power signs, a bottle,

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a team's duplicate documents,

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oversharing, broke ownership models,

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guest accounts, historic migrations,

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and so on and so on and so on.

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And thousands or millions of files nobody has looked at in years.

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For traditional Microsoft 365 management,

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much of that's called remind hidden technical depth

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where they are change.

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Co-pilot and the agents that follow increase

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leave depend on the content permissions,

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structure meter and governance already inside Microsoft

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365.

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So perhaps the biggest challenge with enterprise

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isn't deploying it's dealing with everything in it.

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AI in it today I'm joining by Richard Harpich

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Microsoft MVP, auto global recognized speaker

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and practical industry advisor at chargate,

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which brings around two decades of Microsoft 365.

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Leadership experience has advised how much of IT teams

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moving petabytes of data contributes to product support

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more than 100,000 IT professionals and world organizations

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around the world of Microsoft 365 modernization

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migration governance and adapt to today.

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We are going to explore the connection between Microsoft 365

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modernization and I readiness.

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We'll discuss migration, consideration,

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permission, oversharing, counting lifecycle,

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teams and SharePoints, pro co-pilot readiness and so on.

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Yeah, Richard welcome to the MC65 and podcast.

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A pleasure to be here.

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Yeah, 30 years of experience, how did you career

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in the Microsoft topics now?

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I think the way we frame that is like how many AI years is that

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and that's like five or six AI years, which is pretty good,

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you know, it was like like two decades or so

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normal tech time.

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No, it's I came from Dev and architecture background

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building solutions on Microsoft 365.

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I was sorry at the time SharePoint

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and some of the underlying technologies.

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And then when Office 365 and before it be paused came around,

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I was like, whoa, this is the cloud is pretty cool.

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Went through that big cloud transformation

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and helped many, many customers, both at Microsoft

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and in some companies that I ran do that.

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And then now, oh, I feel like the big transition

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that's been doing it with the last four or five years

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has been this AI transformation.

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And so kind of like the cloud transformation

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before working through that with customers.

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Today with SharePoint, which is a pretty well-known

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Microsoft 365 vendor for getting you into Microsoft 365

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for migrations or consolidation or the governance tool sets

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as well within Microsoft 365.

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Yeah, I read a little bit of your stuff on on LinkedIn

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and then on the websites that I see.

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One of your actual core arguments is that

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co-pilot doesn't arrive in the clean Microsoft 365

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and why I'm at what do's that mean in practice?

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Yeah, I don't think anyone has a clean Microsoft 365 environment

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like we all inherit this mess.

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I always think of this analogy with sediments.

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You think of visually, you have these layers of sediments

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that accrue as your organization, as restructures,

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as you merge, you acquire organizations

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as you adopt different waves of technology

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in the Microsoft 365 stack, because there's

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feedback, there's all these different workloads.

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And the more you accumulate this, that's kind of

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represented a sprawl, the more you have this type of sprawl,

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the more fragmentation exists, the more great decisions

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at the time, these temporary permissioning decisions

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or access scenarios that you inherit those.

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Those previous decisions aren't often reviewed,

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they're not these temporary exceptions become permanent

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and that's kind of where AI is landing in orgs.

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And whether that's co-pilot or for some organizations

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called Enterprise, fundamentally, most of us still use

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Microsoft 365 as the core and our stone of our resources

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are unstructured data, et cetera.

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And so I find that most organizations can

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acknowledge that AI is hard to understand, right?

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Like there were still figuring out governance and things

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like that around it.

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But it's surprising to me that so few organizations

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understand that they're Microsoft 365 environment

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and the mess that it's in, the current state,

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it's in, makes a big difference in terms of how quickly

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and responsibly you can accelerate with AI.

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Now often we read the argument that companies say

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co-pilot creates the governance problems

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or is it from your perspective only exposing the problems

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the organization already had?

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Yeah, I've always liked the mental model of sprawl, right?

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Because sprawl is pretty intuitive.

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I've tried a lot of different things over the years.

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You can imagine doing this for a very long time

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and more recently with 100,000 plus people who use

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Shurgate, it's been really fun talking to lots and lots

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of CIOs and meters.

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And what we found is that the word sprawl

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kind of resonates with people, right?

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We all understand the idea.

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It's not necessarily bad.

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Sometimes it's evidence that people are adopting the platform

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to getting value from it.

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But this idea of unmanaged sprawl is something

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that everyone generally gets like, oh, that's not a good thing.

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And the problem there is when people start

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to think of sprawl is one-dimensional, right?

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So and I get this, like we all do this, right?

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So I think of sprawl, I think immediately maybe

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have SharePoint sites and teams and how those sprawl.

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Or I think of access and I think of permissioning

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and how we have links.

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And we have sprawling links and we have everyone

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except external users and we have all these access

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and permission sprawls.

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But I think the bigger thing to think about is

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that it's not limited to just those things, right?

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You can have ownership sprawling issues.

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You can have life cycle and inactivity type issues.

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That's a type of sprawl.

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You have retirement, like how do you do the archiving

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and the governance of that?

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You have these different layers from everything

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from admin management and how that is dealt with

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to conditional access policies.

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Again, it doesn't need to be just a SharePoint and Teams thing.

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You can look at the broader stack of Microsoft 365.

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We have sprawls, conditional access rules and things like that.

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You also have connectors like how are we doing search

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and connectors and integration sprawl?

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And that's especially true in Microsoft 365 with this AI error.

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We're more and more of this ecosystem and connectors matter.

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How many of our orgs are reviewing those?

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And thinking like, hey, MCP and federated connections

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are now available.

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Are we using those instead of using say

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the traditional graph slash Microsoft co-pilot connectors?

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So the list goes on and on and I think the mistake

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a lot of us make just like we're doing a migration

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or any other project, we know what we know

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and we frame it based on that.

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And when you think of Microsoft 365 more holistically

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and you think of those different types of sprawl categories,

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it allows you to understand that almost all of those

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are impacted or amplified by AI.

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So instead of just thinking like, oh yes,

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of course, we have some interesting stats on this.

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We do these state of Microsoft 365 surveys.

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And so in this year, we found 93% globally of IT leaders

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who run and manage Microsoft 365.

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They were basically saying, hey, we're very confident,

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we're highly confident in our governance.

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And those same people, same cohort, 29% said,

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but co-pilot has surfaced content, it shouldn't have

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over shared content, et cetera.

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Or they also, eight percent say, well, we think it has,

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but we don't know how to check it.

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So that's like 30, what is it?

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36, 37%.

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And then if you look at just US,

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because I like to pick on regions,

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so the US is even more confident and 94% confident.

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And then you also have them being like 47%,

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combining the don't know in the exposures.

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So we know that the reality is different than

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what we have checkmarks, we have options,

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but we're not using them, we're not proactive

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we're using them.

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And I think that goes back down to this idea

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that is it managed sprawl or is it unmanaged sprawl?

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And so I think for a lot of people,

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they get that there's a debt, there's a cost

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that's accumulating and they need to resolve it.

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But for many, I think they struggle to determine

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how to address that in an effective manner, right?

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To really start to solve, not just like cleanup acts,

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activity, but like in a continuous model,

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some of these challenges.

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- I think in companies, so most people work with,

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our family out with teams, SharePoint and OneDrive.

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And I think that's also be the famous sprawl candidates.

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So I think it's because Microsoft makes collaboration,

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so incredible, easy for everyone.

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Did we accurately make workspace creation too easy?

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Is this the kind of problem?

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- Yeah, I think what happens is anytime sprawl outpaces

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like our management, that's the problem, right?

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So I think for a lot of works, we said,

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oh, we'll control that.

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So you lock to hand creation, right?

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As the, just particularly on workspaces.

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And so, okay, that's gonna solve our problem.

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And so what ends up happening as a few things?

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Number one, when you create a workspace,

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what it is six months or a year from now or two years from now,

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it's maybe fundamentally different than what it was started as,

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right?

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This happens a lot with ownership shifts

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and just restructuring in the nature of business.

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So one of the things that's really important

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is those attestations, those reviews, those other cycles,

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because it's not just about like capturing at the creation, right?

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Hey, which department does this relate to?

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This is really to a customer or things like that.

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It's, it's understanding that there's this life cycle

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and that the business itself changes over time.

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And so we can look at signals for that.

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There's a lot of different signals we can look at

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like from oversharing risks and inactivity,

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and things like that, they're, I think, relatively intuitive.

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But then there's these other layers

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and I would say they're like business logic signals.

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And if we don't capture and reference them somewhere,

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then we won't be able to make a lot of decisions.

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So you know, you could argue

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while the whole point of that is ownership.

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But I'll tell you one of the secrets,

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even on that example of provisioning

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when sprawls outpacing our governance,

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one of the best things you can actually do

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isn't having those forms that people fill out.

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And you know, like here's what's your business reasoning

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and all that other stuff?

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It's actually really simple.

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When a new site is created, like I have a new team

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or a new private channel, whatever it is,

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what you do is you take like a department lead

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or a group of leaders within that department

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and you notify them.

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That's it.

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So you know, this person is in department X

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and they're creating a space, you know,

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which is probably in some way related to department X.

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I mean, you can actually ask these questions and figure it out.

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But even if you didn't have it, you can make that assumption.

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Why not notify that group that, hey, this space exists now?

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And the reason that's useful is sometimes

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a little of the name of the space

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in the fact that someone created it, creates a discussion

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and often you see these places that are orphaned

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because they created it not knowing,

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oh, I don't know, we have another place for this.

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And so, you know, that is an example

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of a really minor preventative nudge,

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a thing that you can do that doesn't require you to,

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you know, have perfect ownership,

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doesn't require to have all these other things,

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but it can at least reduce the volume of those activities.

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So then if I have a department set of leaders

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00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,440
or whatever that I can communicate,

259
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,160
these types of insights into, like, hey,

260
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,480
there's a new space for you.

261
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,720
Why not also communicate to those leaders periodically?

262
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,880
Hey, there's a bunch of inactive sites or spaces.

263
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,120
And maybe as an organization,

264
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,560
we can get a little bit more comfortable with archiving

265
00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:48,320
'cause no one wants to lead stuff, I get you.

266
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:49,960
But we can archive that content.

267
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,920
And so you can use that as a system

268
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,640
to both notify, of course, the owners of those spaces,

269
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,240
but where ownership starts to break down,

270
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,240
we can now use these,

271
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,640
quote of these representatives of those departments

272
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,160
to help with those discussions.

273
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,800
So what you're doing is you're scaffolding,

274
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,040
you know, better governance as a baseline

275
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:07,880
and then you're using it.

276
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,240
But again, that might be mature for this organization,

277
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,720
and that might be very immature for another organization.

278
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,120
And this is what I mean where sprawl

279
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:16,960
has all these different types.

280
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,680
So you might have a really great maturity on provisioning

281
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,760
and understanding our spaces

282
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:22,920
and doing things like that.

283
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,600
But in that same organization,

284
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,760
they might be really bad when it comes to access.

285
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,240
And they have a lot of guest access

286
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,840
that just kind of languishes and is not managed well.

287
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,960
So you kind of have to look at different layers

288
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:34,960
of your governance journey

289
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,560
and go through that exercise we just did

290
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:38,280
of what's like a simple thing I can do

291
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,360
that makes it better.

292
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,640
What it might not seem?

293
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:41,800
So you need to see, I think,

294
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:42,880
visibility is a big gap,

295
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,240
a lot of organizations struggle with today.

296
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,200
Like where are the risks in my environment,

297
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,880
what are the challenges in my environment?

298
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,280
And then once you've seen those

299
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,840
and you find and prioritize them,

300
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,840
it's this fix and automation optimally,

301
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,840
some way that you can continually do that.

302
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,920
So you can move on to the very time-intensive work

303
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,240
of transforming your organization with AI

304
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:03,760
and the demands that that brings.

305
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,640
Because right now we're just talking about Microsoft 365

306
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,640
governance, which is a resource for agents,

307
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,800
but agents in AI itself has all these new governance layers

308
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,320
that we have to tackle.

309
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:14,880
And so that needs capacity.

310
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,480
And so this is better and faster we can deal with this,

311
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,240
the faster we can safely push on that accelerator

312
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,320
for AI in a responsible way.

313
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:28,000
- I think I had a firm, I was a little bit shocked.

314
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,200
They have a governance rule of the Austin six months,

315
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,160
no activity, they deleted.

316
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,520
And I say, oh, what's with your project,

317
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,920
documentation, they're all.

318
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,400
So did we have something like expiration policies

319
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,440
or should we, how can we handle this?

320
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,960
- Yeah, I think when you talk about expiration policies

321
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,320
and things like that, the caution,

322
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,760
I think a lot of organizations have is,

323
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,720
do I have the authority to do this action?

324
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,840
And I think this comes back down to two ideas.

325
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,080
One, is it auditable?

326
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:03,960
Like sometimes people are really cautious

327
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,920
'cause they just don't know if it's stored and tracked

328
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,880
in a way so that it's visible and there's clarity there.

329
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,120
Number two, I think that history matters.

330
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,320
Number two, I think we need recoverable.

331
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,600
So if I do something, some remediation action,

332
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:19,720
can I restore it?

333
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,320
Can I convert it back if there's noise or feedback?

334
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:24,920
And I think out of the box

335
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,400
that can be challenging with some things.

336
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,400
I think archiving is an easier one,

337
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,800
but at doing it at scale is hard to do that retrieval.

338
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,440
So now you're writing scripts, you're doing other things.

339
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,280
Similarly, a lot of times we wanna have stages, right?

340
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,320
We don't wanna just archive it to your point.

341
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,880
We wanna notify them and then we wanna message

342
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,640
that department lead and we wanna go through two or three steps

343
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,600
before we take that action, that remediation action.

344
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,920
And I think that's the key is a lot of the,

345
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,320
it's not that we don't know how to do this.

346
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,760
It's that each of those actions that we're describing

347
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,960
require scripting, like I wish it was out of the box,

348
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:57,800
but it's not, right?

349
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,120
We require us to write some scripts

350
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,240
or we require us to do our own formal automation.

351
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:03,880
And I think that's why, and I'm not saying

352
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:04,720
that it needs to be shared,

353
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,520
but I think that's why toolenders can help

354
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,440
because it offsets the effort

355
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,440
in implementing some of those patterns.

356
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,280
And even if you're not using the tool vendors,

357
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,160
I think the key in that scenario or sequence

358
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,640
is can I make sure that whatever I automate

359
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,400
is restorable, recoverable, undueable.

360
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,240
And when you start to look at your automations in that way,

361
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,320
it suddenly becomes a little less problematic

362
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,680
to be a little bit more, I don't wanna say aggressive

363
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,920
as a posture, but it may be a little bit more proactive

364
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:34,920
in your posture, right?

365
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,480
When it comes to inactivity, when it comes to permissioning,

366
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,600
I'll give you another example just on permissioning.

367
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,600
We all know that we should have expires.

368
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,040
So if you have a guest link, an external link,

369
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,360
we should be expire after X-Day,

370
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,720
14 days, whatever your organizational baseline is.

371
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:51,600
And you can configure that.

372
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,320
And actually most organizations brand new tenants

373
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,760
actually will have that as a default.

374
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,240
Like there's all this great stuff

375
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,400
might be left on, but again,

376
00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,640
we all have tenants that are brand new.

377
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,040
So what we have to do is we need to go,

378
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,680
okay, yes, we'll go change the sharing

379
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,800
so that by default when you click the share button,

380
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,360
it goes and shares with named people,

381
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,040
and then they have to click everyone in the org,

382
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,360
they have to click on the everyone,

383
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:12,880
including external or whatever.

384
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,560
So when they, we enable that guest link model,

385
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,640
the trick is the legacy you've already inherited.

386
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,360
So you can look across organization,

387
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,240
this is the C part, the visibility part,

388
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,160
and you can see all of the links,

389
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,440
these are anonymous like guest links

390
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,720
that have existed in your environment

391
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,760
that are over X-Day's old.

392
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,480
I mean, that's a pretty easy script or whatever you could run.

393
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:33,920
So get that visibility.

394
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,120
Then when you see that visibility,

395
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,200
if you have a new policy and your policies look,

396
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,520
all these external links should expire after 14 days.

397
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,360
Why not consider an approach where we actually

398
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:46,840
take the ones that are three months old,

399
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,200
maybe it's not 14 days, but like, get rid of them,

400
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,640
like delete the link, like we don't need that link anymore.

401
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,000
And what would happen is if we delete that link

402
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,240
and someone says, oh, oh, I need that access,

403
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,200
they can go through the process of resharing it,

404
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,040
or again, this is the trick with a small percentage

405
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,280
of these, maybe IT's available to restore that.

406
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,320
And so that becomes the idea of your pattern of behavior,

407
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:10,680
like what is the right approach?

408
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,080
But I think for a lot of organizations,

409
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,000
that would allow you to delete a lot of those old links,

410
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,720
a lot of those, you know, historic risks.

411
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,120
And I think this isn't just true for this.

412
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:19,280
I think this could also be true for everyone

413
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,480
in the org links too, right?

414
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,400
There's a whole discussion about like,

415
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,240
you could determine is this in a calm space, right?

416
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,440
Is this in a communication internet site?

417
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,520
Great, then we don't need to do anything around it.

418
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,760
But if it's in like what looks to be a pretty private team site

419
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,520
and you have this everyone in the org link on that content,

420
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,680
and you've notified people and you've done the normal stuff,

421
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,160
maybe that's an opportunity to take that extra step

422
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,960
and say, you know what, maybe we should delete it

423
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,160
for this team site because we've determined the content

424
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,200
that we're looking at that has this link,

425
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,040
has a sensitive information type.

426
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,160
So you know, even though it could be shared

427
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,000
with everyone in your work,

428
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,920
it's a pretty high risk scenario,

429
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,720
and maybe it's better to be a little bit more,

430
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,560
again, proactive here with notifications,

431
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,480
because it's pretty easy for them to reshare it

432
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,200
if that's the case while, you know, relabeling it

433
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,880
because maybe the labels incorrect

434
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,240
and it's not, you know, it's a false positive

435
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,680
for being, you know, PII or whatever it is.

436
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,200
So I think like, this is what I mean,

437
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,800
there's this nuance and, but at the end of the day,

438
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,360
you just need that confidence to be able to implement

439
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,280
these things and that goes down to, you know,

440
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,560
how do you phase that action so that you can do it

441
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,600
in a way that, you know, it's easier, faster

442
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,040
and especially more recoverable?

443
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,680
- I think Gunnitz has often bad reputation.

444
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,480
It's framed as IP says no.

445
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,520
(laughs)

446
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,960
But is it possible to, I think like, yeah,

447
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,840
governance as a self-service for the employees?

448
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,520
- Yeah, so I mean, distributed governance

449
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,680
is definitely on the rise, which I think is really positive

450
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:51,520
and we need it, right?

451
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,560
So in order to scale in the world of AI, you know,

452
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,360
the demands are very, very high.

453
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,760
And so your organization is changing very, very rapidly

454
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,880
that technology or adopting is changing rapidly

455
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,280
and even like the content, like, you know,

456
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,760
we see this growth in the type of content, right?

457
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,080
Think of HTML, this is a great example

458
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,680
just as a quick digression.

459
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,200
You think of like a PowerPoint presentation,

460
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,320
okay, that PowerPoint presentation we can secure, right?

461
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:15,960
It has, you know, PI or whatever,

462
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,920
we can do different determinations.

463
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,280
When it's an HTML dashboard and that dashboard

464
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,400
is pulling from six documents, which is real thing today,

465
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,560
like people are by coding this stuff all the time.

466
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,280
So when you have that pulling from,

467
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,760
or we're using co-work to do it,

468
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,280
you have it pulling from multiple documents,

469
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,040
you know, the documents might be secure,

470
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,560
but is this artifact, is HTML is that, you know,

471
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,560
appropriately labeled, you know,

472
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,320
that that might have cashed or even stored the content

473
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,160
in the HTML.

474
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,680
A lot of times what they do is they have like a button

475
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,480
that retrieves, but it actually stores in the HTML.

476
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:47,760
So then that becomes another problem.

477
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,480
But this is what I mean, and it's not one HTML,

478
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,680
it's many files as we all know,

479
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,400
it's like JavaScript and all sorts of things.

480
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,640
And so what ends up happening is we,

481
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,280
our landscape is rapidly evolving.

482
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,080
And for, I think a lot of organizations,

483
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,800
when we want to address that pain point,

484
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,640
we have to have an approach that allows us to distribute

485
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,640
that with the org.

486
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,800
Because if IT just took all that cost of ownership

487
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,600
on internally and tried to manage all these changes,

488
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,080
they would fail.

489
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,560
So one way to do that, and Microsoft themselves

490
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,840
have released some new stuff here,

491
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,360
is you can actually have site owners,

492
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,440
you know, people who are responsible for a site,

493
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,000
or a Microsoft team or a channel,

494
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,400
you can give them a little bit more agencies

495
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,240
so that they can see the things that I was talking about earlier,

496
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,760
like these risks within their environments,

497
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,760
these attestation gaps, those things you've asked them for,

498
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,200
but that they haven't provided.

499
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,800
So you can do a little bit of that just to distribute that.

500
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,000
I think another piece of that is if you're going to reach out

501
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,840
to someone, you can do it in a more combined way.

502
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,760
So, or you can be more proactive with recommendations.

503
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,520
I actually really recommend, you know,

504
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,800
IT is really good at making judgment calls,

505
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,800
believe it or not, on some of these technical things,

506
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,800
like what options I should take.

507
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,000
And so while we might not be able to say

508
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,840
that these people should have access,

509
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,680
we can make it really easy for them to click one button

510
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,440
to remove that person, right?

511
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,200
Instead of them having to go through the UX

512
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,000
and actually remove a person.

513
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,800
So we can simplify a little bit of that

514
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,720
by building our own little tools.

515
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,160
One of my favorite examples of this,

516
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,160
I don't know if you've played with it.

517
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,200
I love using agents as an admin.

518
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,240
So when I'm using, when I'm trying to distribute

519
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,920
governance across the organization,

520
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,040
what I often will start with is a natural conversation,

521
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,320
you know, in cloud or co-pilot or whatever tool you like.

522
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,720
And I'll say, okay, I'll give you an example.

523
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,360
I was working the other day on, you know,

524
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,600
this organization that has a lot of ownership issues.

525
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,960
So we were looking at, what are all the owners,

526
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,880
you know, where are those sites that have only X owners?

527
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,880
Cool.

528
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,960
If it has only X owners and they have not,

529
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,880
those same owners have not signed in.

530
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,840
So we're looking at entry data, right?

531
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,840
If they haven't signed in within X amount of time,

532
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,840
then I think that that's not a stable owner, right?

533
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,000
'Cause that owner is not around.

534
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,480
They might be, you know, a orphaned object within AD or Entra.

535
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,480
And so that was the second layer.

536
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,200
And then the third layer of that same conversation

537
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,280
was low to the activity of that site,

538
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,640
in order they inactive, are they highly active, et cetera.

539
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,880
And then I added another layer of sensitive information types

540
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,680
in this whole time, sometimes I'm using the share gate MCP,

541
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,000
sometimes I'm using the Microsoft Enterprise MCP,

542
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,520
sometimes I'm just using graph calls,

543
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,080
like, you know, kind of traditional scripting things.

544
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,960
But I'm writing very little of it, right?

545
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,560
Like I'm using just like a very carefully with guardrails,

546
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,240
I'm going a lot of retrieve, a lot of read information.

547
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,080
I take all that and I'm like, you know,

548
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,400
now we need to find a way to distribute this.

549
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,440
So now we know which owners are likely to respond,

550
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,920
which owners seem to be like logging in, seem to be active.

551
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,960
So we're gonna notify them, but why notify them just in mail?

552
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,600
Why not also notify them in teams or Slack

553
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,360
or whatever your organization uses.

554
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,600
And so in this instance, again,

555
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,160
it created all the communication, right,

556
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,760
within that conversation thread.

557
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,720
And then once I created that communication,

558
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,560
I literally used my identity very carefully

559
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,400
to then communicate those things across those different spaces.

560
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,760
Again, just using API calls, traditional stuff.

561
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,760
So I think a modern admin, I'm not saying you should do this,

562
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,120
you know, without guardrails and safety,

563
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,720
but I think a modern admin can work in a really natural way

564
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,120
and scale what they're doing with different techniques,

565
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,840
different channels, different approaches,

566
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,960
and layers if they're using MCP, if they're doing all these things.

567
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,640
But if they're not doing those things,

568
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,000
you try to do half of what I just described traditionally,

569
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,040
I would never have the time,

570
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,480
because I'd be still working on doing the export, right,

571
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,080
of data access governance reports

572
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,760
along with like the SharePoint Admin Center reports

573
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,240
and then collating those, like I'd be doing all these layered activities

574
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,440
and then I have to go look at MTROS

575
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,920
so I'd have to do some other report at Entra Admin Center.

576
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,440
So like those are like just that alone

577
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,280
was like five different admin centers

578
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,680
and like six different reports

579
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,000
that I'd have to pull down and then analyze.

580
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,120
And so I think that's the difference.

581
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,040
Like if you're working in that traditional,

582
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,080
very manual approach,

583
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,800
or if you have to work with multiple people,

584
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,080
you have to work with the Entra Admin

585
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,080
just to get that information on sign in this example,

586
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,720
it makes it really, really problematic.

587
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,560
So I think that's the trick is you have to work in a modern way

588
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,280
and by working in a modern way that allows us to

589
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:14,960
both distribute governance more effectively

590
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,480
and also get on top of it faster.

591
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,120
- Well, when I see or actually a lot of companies

592
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,440
adapt co-pilot in their environments

593
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,600
and I see the governance dudes

594
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,760
and there are the Dutch dudes

595
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,080
and there are often treat us,

596
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,360
yeah, separate disciplines.

597
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,320
Should there be or should it more be a team play?

598
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,720
- Yeah, so can I pick on like something

599
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,800
that I just I think under it underpins this problem, right?

600
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,760
So a new probably feels the same way.

601
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,080
I don't wanna say hey,

602
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,080
how do I frame this in it more constructively.

603
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,000
I'm starting to really actively dislike the term AI readiness.

604
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,200
Okay, so because AI readiness kind of feels like

605
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,000
that first to positions IT as oh, you're binary,

606
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,520
you're just making it ready or not, right?

607
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,360
And then we do the innovation, whoever that innovation team is

608
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:15,640
which sometimes is an IT just to be clear.

609
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,160
But AI doesn't work that way.

610
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,240
So I think, you know, ready sounds finished,

611
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,240
it sounds like a checklist, this is the wrong language.

612
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:23,200
So let's start with that

613
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,600
'cause I think it's just a great one

614
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,400
that encapsulates this problem.

615
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,000
So the technology changes, your organization's constantly

616
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,680
changing your data's changing, your risk changes, right?

617
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,280
Hopefully your ambition with AI changes too, right?

618
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:36,280
You're over here.

619
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,000
And I think we're actually using the word readiness

620
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,800
to describe many different things

621
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,040
that IT is responsible for and governance people

622
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,280
are responsible for.

623
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,960
So, you know, what do we really wanna do with AI?

624
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,680
Well, I think that's our ambition.

625
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,040
So we have to have an ambition.

626
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,280
What is it we wanna do with AI?

627
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,440
And that of course can be multidisciplinary

628
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,320
and quite comprehensive in our work.

629
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,440
Then can we support that ambition?

630
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,600
You know, and can we do it responsibly?

631
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,040
I think that's fizzing.

632
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,880
And I think like instead of AI readiness,

633
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,680
it's AI fit, are you AI fit?

634
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,440
I think it's a better way to think about it, right?

635
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,960
'Cause you know, fitness, you kind of,

636
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,440
you use this idea of like fitness is a recurring thing,

637
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,120
you practice it, you get better at it, right?

638
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:16,920
There's like, I just for language,

639
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,240
I think it's a really good term.

640
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,320
So that's fitness.

641
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960
And then how quickly can we turn it into value?

642
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,480
You know, I think that's acceleration.

643
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,960
So when we say AI readiness,

644
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,800
what we really mean is we want to say,

645
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,000
what's our AI ambition?

646
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,880
What is our AI fitness?

647
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,800
And essentially how quickly can we turn it into value

648
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,760
or how can we responsibly accelerate it?

649
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,960
And in that framing, it becomes not being AI ready.

650
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,760
It becomes as your ambition rises,

651
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,200
your fitness has to rise with it

652
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,000
and better fitness gives you the confidence

653
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,560
to accelerate responsibly.

654
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,840
So we in that framing, going back to governance,

655
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,080
governance isn't just ready.

656
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,880
It's not a check mark, hey, our risk is mitigated.

657
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,120
Governance is about making sure that our fitness

658
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:00,200
is cost effective.

659
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,840
Like we can be fit, right?

660
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,000
That we're not, you know, our sprawl

661
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,800
that I just mentioned, all that sprawl that we mentioned

662
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,760
is not weighing us down.

663
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:07,720
It's not holding us back.

664
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,400
It's not creating exposure risk

665
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,600
and other things like that.

666
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,280
That's part of it, sure.

667
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,880
But it's also the ability to responsibly accelerate.

668
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,680
And I think that's really important

669
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,000
that traditional IT governance owns

670
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,080
because when you say I have a shadow AI

671
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,760
or I have a tool or I have a new multi agent thing

672
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,240
that I want to explore and use in the organization,

673
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,680
we should be able to say, well, here's how you can safely do that.

674
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,560
And there should be like a landing pat think of a radar, right?

675
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,680
A way for people to land safely

676
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,160
whatever that workload or scenario is much faster.

677
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,160
I think that that proactive, that progressive,

678
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,880
that, you know, continuous model of governance

679
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,800
is what we want to be aligned with

680
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,280
because that is the real differentiator over time.

681
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,720
I'll be, I'll be even more ambitious here.

682
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,280
I think in the, in the broader ecosystem,

683
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,920
you kind of make money in career in two ways in IT.

684
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,680
You either drive the innovation,

685
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,000
a business transformation, you know,

686
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,400
process memory and automation with AI

687
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,480
or you do that other side, the governance,

688
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,120
I'm calling it broadly, this governance side, right?

689
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,400
And I think that other side is more competitively

690
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,400
advantaged over time because most orgs really make their,

691
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,000
you know, make their money based on capital P processes

692
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,120
or capital A automation.

693
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,240
And what those are is like what's in European, what's in CRM?

694
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,480
It's like those core systems and experiences.

695
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,200
But the exceptions in the business,

696
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,080
those live in Microsoft 365, right?

697
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,360
You and me, we have emails, we go back and forth.

698
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,080
That's I'm going to call lowercase p process

699
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,080
or lowercase a automation.

700
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,960
That work that exists, that opportunity that exists

701
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,600
totally sits within co-pilot,

702
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,880
totally sits within Microsoft 365.

703
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,360
And if you can be associated with making that data more valuable,

704
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,880
you know, accelerating the automation and improvement

705
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,280
of what we get out of that data,

706
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,040
I think that that is your competitive advantages and org

707
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,640
because almost every org has your P and CRM

708
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,840
and all these other systems, right?

709
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,080
What we have different is how we handle,

710
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,280
you know, the people processes, the lowercase p,

711
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,080
the lowercase a automations.

712
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,360
And you know, that's an interesting space on both,

713
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,520
in both cases, you want to live closer to that,

714
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,960
whether you're on the innovation side or the governance side,

715
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,200
but again, the secret I think is if you're just saying,

716
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,680
oh, no, no, I'm just about AI readiness

717
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,440
and you're limiting both your career

718
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,360
and your IT proactive ability to impact AI in that way,

719
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,760
then you are going to be less and less relevant as AI continues.

720
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,520
But what are the real challenges

721
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,880
in governance now with co-pilot, I think,

722
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,280
for a lot of people, it makes not a different

723
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,920
if they have a bad search results and share point

724
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,080
on the search, are they used co-pilot?

725
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,080
What does the big change, especially when we look at governance,

726
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,800
what role-play is co-pilot here?

727
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,680
Yeah, I think there is a scaling thing here, right?

728
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,520
Part of it isn't so much that, I mean, there is changes,

729
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,000
I used an example earlier of a co-pilot notebook,

730
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,720
I mean, there are lots of things that add layers

731
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,600
of new patterns for governance and new considerations,

732
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,120
you know, for us to manage.

733
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,160
But I think part of it is that a lot of our,

734
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,200
we all know we have this debt, right?

735
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,280
We have this accumulated, I'm going to use the word sprawl,

736
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,040
we have all this sprawl and it's accumulating over time.

737
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,080
And what happens, even when we're managing it,

738
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,800
what happens is at some point that starts to have a cost.

739
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,440
And I think that there are sort of two major things

740
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,160
that happen when we have that cost accumulating.

741
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,160
We either, we either change our approach

742
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,000
and we improve our governance posture,

743
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,880
we do that to manage it better.

744
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,520
And that means that things like oversharing are more managed,

745
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,000
like there's more proactive actions that we're taking,

746
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,480
you know, we have more confidence in it.

747
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,120
Same thing with labeling, you know, purview,

748
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,040
everything in purview, right?

749
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,400
The same idea.

750
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,400
I think the other one, and this is just my opinion,

751
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,640
I think one that people really miss is consolidation.

752
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,240
So sometimes what happens is the interest accumulates

753
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,160
so quickly, it just builds and builds on your sprawl

754
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,320
that it's something you have to make a move, right?

755
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,720
And sometimes this is triggered because we have an M&A,

756
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,720
that's a big move, right?

757
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,280
So you have hundreds of potentially new users

758
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,480
with all their content and all their, you know,

759
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,520
their sprawl merging with your sprawl.

760
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,000
And now all of a sudden you're like, well, of course,

761
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,040
now we need to, you know, we need to do something,

762
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,200
we have to take action there.

763
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,160
And that becomes merging and consolidating

764
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,960
and all the hard logic there.

765
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,160
And I think in that way, you know, migrations, projects,

766
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,120
I think everyone's really familiar with,

767
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,440
become these really interesting opportunities

768
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,200
using that sediment analogy I gave earlier

769
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,360
to excavate through all those layers.

770
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,800
When you get a real picture of like, what is all the content?

771
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,120
What is our, it's tenant look like?

772
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,680
What are all the things within it?

773
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,440
You get this really interesting picture of that

774
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,200
during these consolidation events.

775
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,240
And when you get that picture, you spend a lot of time,

776
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,760
like, who's gonna validate it when we, you know,

777
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,320
transition it over, which department does it really do?

778
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,600
You get all this information, many orgs leave it.

779
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,080
They just move, like it ages in like a few months,

780
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,600
it's no longer up to date.

781
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,800
Why not use that as an opportunity

782
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,680
to keep that momentum going?

783
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,760
And so, you know, if you can have a consolidation event,

784
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,960
and by the way, this doesn't need to be like Google

785
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,440
to Microsoft 365 or, you know, legacy,

786
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,520
deleting edge, like going from file shares

787
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,160
or SharePoint server to Microsoft 365,

788
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,600
it could just be as simple as, you know, it's been

789
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,920
X years we've had all these restructures.

790
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,320
We have a bunch of teams that are similar.

791
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,160
We should work on consolidating those together.

792
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,280
I like figuring out a new structure with, you know,

793
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,280
shared and private channels and so on and so forth.

794
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,480
Maybe they were even built before private channels

795
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,640
and shared channels even existed.

796
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,520
So it's a good opportunity to kind of collate

797
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,680
those new architectures.

798
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,200
So that is a consolidation activity,

799
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,840
but when you do a consolidation activity

800
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,760
it gives you this disability where you work with the business

801
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,760
and you can resolve and improve a lot of these things.

802
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,760
And so I think a lot of the, there's sort of two hammers

803
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,040
we have in IT that we use to do a lot of our work.

804
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,560
We have solution projects, right?

805
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,440
So you have an automation that we were talking about earlier,

806
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,440
we have something like that,

807
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,000
and that gives you that same year excavating,

808
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,440
you're getting that context,

809
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,840
and then, you know, you have a budget,

810
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,840
everything associated with that.

811
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,520
You use that as one way to do it,

812
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,440
and then you can get an understanding of what are these new,

813
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:22,440
you know, information types,

814
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,160
what are these new, you know, governance constructs

815
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,600
that we need to plan for and understand.

816
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,840
And then the other one is, I think, consolidation.

817
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,720
And I think consolidation can be a very proactive thing.

818
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,720
And organizations can do a much better job of it,

819
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,200
because you are, most organizations have already,

820
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,960
in fact, 96% of organizations, again,

821
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,960
this is interesting survey data from the,

822
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,200
yes, your survey from 900 plus IT leaders,

823
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,240
96% have had a migration of last two years.

824
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Like, it's, the number, I think it's the number two,

825
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,120
but it's very rapidly rising.

826
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,360
The number two reason people even do a migration

827
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,920
or consolidation is for AI.

828
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,400
I want to AI enable my file, sure.

829
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,760
I want to AI enable, you know,

830
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,560
I want to get off of Google and Microsoft,

831
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,720
because I really want all my data in WorkIQ,

832
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,960
so my connectors and everything else are more clean.

833
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,680
Whatever your journey is, like,

834
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,200
that is driving a huge number of these migrations.

835
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,800
I can, I think, they're just,

836
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,160
they're big buckets of budget and time in the,

837
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,520
in the environments, those are really good opportunities

838
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,320
to get a better understanding of what we're not migrating.

839
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,440
Not just the content, but the ecosystem around it.

840
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,520
And I'll just give one last example of this,

841
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,200
I'm sorry, this is a bit long.

842
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,840
So one of these organizations we're working with recently,

843
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,480
they had really went crazy with something called SharePoint Premium

844
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,600
or Autofill columns.

845
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,360
So in co-pilot, you can have each document,

846
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,160
like a leasing library, each leases basically

847
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,240
have a co-pilot prompt run against it,

848
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:46,800
and it extracts, you know,

849
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,040
you know, what's the location?

850
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,600
What kind of building is this?

851
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,440
You know, all these contract clauses,

852
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,280
all sorts of things.

853
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,840
You just want to extract it into metadata.

854
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,120
And that's really nice for views and filtering and search

855
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,080
and whatever, but the real reason for it is because

856
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,560
that metadata can be ingested at a scale

857
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,880
with co-pilot that individual content can't, right?

858
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,800
Because if you asked a question like,

859
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,000
I have 3,000 leases and I say something like,

860
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,280
okay, grab me all the ones that relate to this,

861
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,120
it will grab the first 20 or whatever,

862
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,240
it'll grab as many as it can fit in the context length,

863
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,080
but then it'll kind of end there.

864
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,040
And when you do this with the metadata,

865
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,840
it can grab all of them and just look at all of them,

866
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,440
you know, and really give you the right results.

867
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,520
So these organizations had done this in many places.

868
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,000
And this is, by the way, not a unique thing.

869
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,320
This happens all the time.

870
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,880
But it's an example where, you know,

871
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:29,680
and they use Sharegate,

872
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,120
so that migration worked well,

873
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,040
they migrated labels, you know,

874
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,640
the content itself came across,

875
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,360
all the metadata is coming across fine.

876
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,280
But when they added new lease agreements,

877
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,840
they're not automatically extracting that metadata.

878
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,520
And so these other things like agents,

879
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,280
not the things that don't work correctly.

880
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,840
And so that was a migration fail,

881
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,160
not because the, you know,

882
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,320
the lift and shift went really well,

883
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,480
they did everything right.

884
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,000
It's that the part of the ecosystem that they missed

885
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,600
was they have to rebuild those models.

886
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,440
They have to build, you know,

887
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,400
SharePoint Premium Legacy models as Auto-Fill Colms.

888
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,440
And once they had reestablished those Auto-Fill Colms,

889
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,640
they were, they were a checkmark again, right?

890
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,280
But the problem is the timing.

891
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,880
That all came out right when they're like trying to finish,

892
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,840
right, as a course of every migration does.

893
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:12,840
And so what are they gonna do?

894
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:13,840
And what is every customer hope

895
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:14,920
who's over here is this gonna do?

896
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:15,600
Is they're gonna think of,

897
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,640
oh, what about this, right?

898
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:18,800
What about Power Platform?

899
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040
What about, you know, my,

900
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,160
flows and automations around my libraries

901
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:24,240
of content that were migrating?

902
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:26,920
What about, you know, the example of Auto-Fill Colms?

903
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,520
What about SharePoint skills?

904
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,400
What about all these new things,

905
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,680
especially in the co-pilot era,

906
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,160
that need to also migrate

907
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,160
when we migrate, say, SharePoint data.

908
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,760
And I think that is what we're talking about.

909
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,240
There's this growing expectation for IT

910
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:42,640
to cover all of these things.

911
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,600
And I think migration's just an easier way to frame it

912
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,680
than to talk about governance,

913
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,000
but it's the same problem with governance.

914
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,880
It's the exact same issue of, okay,

915
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,160
are we even governing, you know,

916
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,640
co-pilot notebooks of these technical locations?

917
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,560
Are we governing one note notebooks?

918
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,080
Are we governing like there's old categories of stuff?

919
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,960
Many organizations don't consider

920
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,440
in their governance planning.

921
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,200
And yet, now you could, you couldn't, you know,

922
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,760
couldn't even do labels, right, on notebooks, you know,

923
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,480
and at the various assets of notebooks a little while ago,

924
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,320
but now it's functionally available

925
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,240
in Microsoft 365, I think of this year, right,

926
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:16,440
was that feature set that came out from the roadmap.

927
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,200
So that has to change the way you govern as well.

928
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,400
- Well, I think it's, when we think co-pilot

929
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,200
for the most people that's co-pilot,

930
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,600
I say it's a check bot,

931
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,120
and now we get more of these, I say,

932
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:35,120
autonomous systems that are, yeah, it's also work for work for me.

933
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,120
It's not only answer questions,

934
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,080
how did this change governance?

935
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,040
- Yeah, I think, you know, there's two ways to think about that,

936
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,400
right, there's how AI gets embedded into like workflows

937
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,000
and the existing things that we were describing, right?

938
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,400
Does it live in SharePoint?

939
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,480
Does it live in, you know, 'cause sometimes it does,

940
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,040
does it live as an agent in the power platform stack

941
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,120
and we think about it more of a power platform governance

942
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,880
discussion, does it think, do we think of it across?

943
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,040
So a couple of things, one, all AI,

944
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,960
whatever type you're dealing with,

945
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,720
if we're talking about Microsoft 365 world,

946
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:15,880
it's gonna interface with Microsoft 365 data in some way.

947
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680
And so if it's doing that, think of a resource up approach.

948
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,920
So we need to do governance from a resource up perspective.

949
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,960
That's by the way, the most mature area,

950
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,000
it's the most accessible area,

951
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,920
and then we also need to deal with it from a top down.

952
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,160
So when I say top down, I mean like the agent,

953
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,080
you know, the agent model itself, right?

954
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,080
And then the tools the agents can call

955
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,240
and all these things that you kind of do from a higher level

956
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,680
and then you work your way down.

957
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:40,680
And both of those make sense.

958
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,280
So in Microsoft 365 terms, you have agent 365,

959
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,320
which is kind of that top down and a little bit of resource up,

960
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,240
but most of the resource up is the purview

961
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:50,440
and a SharePoint Advanced Management

962
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,080
and these other spaces, right, within the Microsoft stack.

963
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,840
So that's one way to think about it.

964
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,120
And by doing that, you're able to support these new agent growth.

965
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,080
The other one, and I think this is really more fundamental,

966
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,080
organizations should do the same things

967
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,200
we've always been doing when it comes to

968
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,200
the next generation of agents, right?

969
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,600
And that's to learn from our mistakes, right?

970
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,600
So Microsoft 365 sprawls already taught us

971
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,800
that democratized creation is incredibly powerful,

972
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,720
but that's gonna require scalable governance

973
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,520
and scalable retirement and scalable consolidation

974
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:25,760
in these types of things.

975
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,040
And consolidation matters by the way for this.

976
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,520
So you might ask today, who owns the agent?

977
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:31,280
Can I answer that?

978
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,680
What can it access and can it do it responsibly?

979
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,080
And are we checking that regularly?

980
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,200
You might check that at the beginning of an agent,

981
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:39,960
but you have to check that

982
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,400
'cause an agent can really dynamic and change a lot in three months,

983
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,320
right, like there's a lot of innovation and progress

984
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,720
that's being made both by people who are owning these agents

985
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:48,560
and more.

986
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:49,640
What can it do?

987
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,800
Again, it's increasingly making decisions.

988
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,160
We actually see agents now making permission requests.

989
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,360
So we have permissions for all before,

990
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,800
but now you actually have, and by the way,

991
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,720
people don't spend tokens going, hey,

992
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:01,240
check all the permissions that you asked for

993
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:02,600
and double check if we still need them.

994
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:03,440
You know what I mean?

995
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,440
That's not a, we should,

996
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,880
but it's not really in the design of a lot of these agents today.

997
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:08,880
Who can use it?

998
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,800
What systems does it connect to?

999
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Is it still needed?

1000
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:12,920
This is a big one.

1001
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,560
There's actually a huge number of organizational studies

1002
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,160
that are showing now that a lot of those earlier agents

1003
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,120
we built with AI that aren't maintained,

1004
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,560
not the ones that we continue,

1005
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,920
but that they're really built poorly,

1006
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,520
and there are great opportunities to retire it

1007
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,680
and rebuild them because it's so easy to do that now

1008
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,880
and it can be done in a better way.

1009
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,720
And so the lesson isn't to slow down creation, right?

1010
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:33,560
We learn that.

1011
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,240
You can't do that in the SharePoint sites and you name it, right?

1012
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,920
And Microsoft 365, what we learned is

1013
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,400
we have to make sure our ability to govern,

1014
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,200
retire things, consolidate things,

1015
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,440
scales with our ability to create them.

1016
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,240
And I think that goes back to those questions.

1017
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,280
We can answer these questions

1018
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,880
on a per agent basis today for,

1019
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,760
I'll say that the capital P process agents that IT

1020
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,560
is help colonally, right?

1021
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,840
But I am confident most orgs can't say the same

1022
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,160
for the vast array of agents and even, you know,

1023
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,160
vibe coded solutions across the organization today.

1024
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,640
And in both those instances,

1025
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,080
we have to find a way to be able to answer those same questions,

1026
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,440
who owns it, what can it be access, what can it do, et cetera.

1027
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,200
We need to be able to answer that for all of those

1028
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,640
so that we can work on consolidation,

1029
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,760
retirement, things like that because they are exposure risks.

1030
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:21,600
And then you know,

1031
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:22,760
you know, they may think,

1032
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:23,960
oh, it doesn't have access to things,

1033
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,800
but increasingly they have their own digital identities.

1034
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,320
And so that digital identity has literally access

1035
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,320
to a bunch of resources,

1036
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,280
kind of like you're sharing the examples.

1037
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,440
And unlike a person where we can ask that person

1038
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,800
to review it and make sure that they still need access,

1039
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,720
that's harder with agents because you can often

1040
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:41,920
have relationships with your agents,

1041
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,360
you have relationships with your people

1042
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,040
who really owns the agent and is accountable for the agent

1043
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,720
is also sometimes really opaque,

1044
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,240
besides like a department or a shared sense of ownership

1045
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:52,240
or accountability.

1046
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:54,680
So these are all things that we're all working through,

1047
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,320
but at the end of the day,

1048
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,080
it comes down to being able to scale that.

1049
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,840
And if you don't accept that,

1050
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,160
you will be your cost of ownership will keep increasing

1051
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,560
and you will never catch up, right?

1052
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,480
Just like we did with Microsoft 365.

1053
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,760
- Yeah, we see on one side,

1054
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,480
we have to do a lot of governance for

1055
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,840
to have a good experience with AI,

1056
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,400
but on the other side,

1057
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,400
called AI us help to be better in governance.

1058
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,600
- Absolutely, no.

1059
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,400
And I think my example earlier,

1060
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,160
I know it was like quick and it'd be easier

1061
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:31,720
if I could show like on screen,

1062
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,560
but like that example working with like,

1063
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,720
it doesn't need to be MCPs,

1064
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,840
but that idea of working like with agents

1065
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,200
to scale your governance,

1066
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,720
I think is a good example of a signal

1067
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:44,240
that suggests your organization is more mature,

1068
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:45,200
assuming you have guardrails

1069
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,040
and you're doing it in the right way.

1070
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,040
And that's fundamentally different than saying,

1071
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,680
oh yeah, we use the SharePoint admin agent,

1072
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,600
which is great, like use the skills, storage skills, et cetera,

1073
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,240
but there's so many limitations with that

1074
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,320
where you need an extra layer, right?

1075
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,160
It's just not gonna get to the level action ability

1076
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,160
that you need in order to do something, right?

1077
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,200
To take some sort of action.

1078
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,440
You would just give you that broader visibility

1079
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680
that there is challenges or risks.

1080
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,880
It's up to you then to take that in script

1081
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,320
or do it all those extra steps.

1082
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,000
But why not do that with the support of AI

1083
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,360
or a great tool like ShareGate?

1084
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,920
And that's interesting.

1085
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,320
I think a little bit about how looks,

1086
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,040
we say, ShareGate or from your perspective,

1087
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,920
we have an organization, I say,

1088
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,360
10,000 employees, stealth of teams, SharePoint sites,

1089
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,920
years of content and very inconsistent permissions

1090
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,960
and they want to deploy co-pilot.

1091
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,160
Where do they start?

1092
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,320
What's your roadmap for trust ones?

1093
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,880
Yeah, I mean, most organizations today

1094
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,440
they'll do piloting and then they'll scale

1095
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,560
so I won't really talk about like the adoption pattern.

1096
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:52,960
I think that's kind of well established.

1097
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,040
I will say, just two quick notes.

1098
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:56,640
Most orgs make a mistake.

1099
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,640
We all are used to the champion model.

1100
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,480
So you give it to these distributed champions

1101
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,280
across teams, just fundamentally the wrong approach

1102
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:06,680
with co-pilot.

1103
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,920
The way it works is a team-based adoption model.

1104
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,280
So you really want to saturate a team with AI together

1105
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,080
because then they learn better together and so on and so forth.

1106
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,640
So there are little things like that

1107
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,520
if we wanted to talk about it that are tactically important.

1108
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,200
But I think the other way to look at it,

1109
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,160
because again, I'm such a governance mind of personally

1110
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,760
is I think of like, how do I roll this out

1111
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,560
in sequencing a really decent sprawl?

1112
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,480
And so I think then what you're trying to do

1113
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,480
is find where your sprawl risk is higher.

1114
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,360
And I think for some organizations,

1115
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,800
it's going to be access control.

1116
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,040
For some, it's going to be life cycle

1117
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,080
and then activity and that type of stuff.

1118
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,920
And for others, it's going to be like privilege,

1119
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,440
identity management, and all these other things, right?

1120
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,480
It's going to be the admin stuff.

1121
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,480
So for that, we did this exercise where we found

1122
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,360
it was helpful to split up the types of sprawl

1123
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,480
because that's informative to an organization.

1124
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,720
And then perfect world, you'd be able to benchmark yourself,

1125
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,160
you'd be able to say, well, let me answer a couple of questions.

1126
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,240
And then you show me where I should prioritize and focus.

1127
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:10,720
And so we actually took some time and built that

1128
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:12,240
in Sharegate.

1129
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:13,240
It's a free solution.

1130
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:14,240
Anyone can use it.

1131
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,760
It's called the risk radar.

1132
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,040
Go link in the show notes or something.

1133
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:23,040
But basically, the idea behind it is that we have this experience

1134
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:30,400
where you can go in, you can see the 13 types of sprawl.

1135
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,320
You can see industry baselines.

1136
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,400
So that's really helpful because you might be like,

1137
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,560
oh, we're really behind.

1138
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Trust me, like the average out of five on a maturity scale

1139
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,080
is like 1.4.

1140
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,920
It's like really low for like a mid-size organization.

1141
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,760
But you can kind of see where you're found behind.

1142
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,440
And then you can actually see, OK, right now we're at a two

1143
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,480
in access and oversharing and all those things

1144
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,440
like for sprawl maturity.

1145
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,080
If we want to get to a three or four, what does that mean?

1146
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,240
And so that's where, you know, we have these specific actions

1147
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:00,320
that you take.

1148
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:01,240
There's a bit of framing.

1149
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,040
And then the thing I really like about this tool

1150
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,560
is it puts a dollar value to what we just described.

1151
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,600
So if I am trying to champion us, not just rolling out

1152
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,520
co-pilot, but spending the right time-- not just

1153
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,200
to clean up exercise, but a continual posture thing--

1154
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,960
then I can present that and say, like, here's

1155
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,040
industry defensible data that suggests

1156
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,760
that the costs risk of us not doing this,

1157
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,520
these scenarios that are extremely likely that do occur,

1158
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,920
they have these kinds of cost consequences in our org

1159
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,520
and based on your data.

1160
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,240
And so based on that, I have a number now

1161
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,240
I can throw back to IT and say, basically,

1162
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:42,080
I'm asking for only my time for weeks to do these actions.

1163
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,000
And then we'll have a nice automated process.

1164
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,440
If you can give me whatever that is $6,000 or $10,000 worth

1165
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,520
of my time, then that would save us hundreds of thousands

1166
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:53,120
or millions.

1167
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,760
And now you can show that using the way

1168
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,240
that this calculates within that tool.

1169
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,880
So yeah, I hate to position a tool.

1170
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:00,840
Especially in an audio thing.

1171
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,760
But I think that's one way to tackle it that would really help.

1172
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,720
And I encourage people to try that sprawl risk greater.

1173
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:09,280
But I think the sort of secondary thing

1174
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,600
that I'm highlighting there is, you need to come in and say,

1175
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,520
yeah, we're going to roll it out properly,

1176
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:15,800
but it's not going to end.

1177
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,200
It's not AI ready and it's done.

1178
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,200
It's AI fitness.

1179
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,520
And so if we're going to be doing this fitness thing,

1180
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,200
we're going to be doing this governance thing.

1181
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,680
I need budget.

1182
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,720
I need a way to present that business case

1183
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,760
so that it sustains post that initial launch.

1184
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,640
And I think that's really critical for organizations

1185
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:34,160
to do.

1186
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,520
And the more we can champion that, the more you're

1187
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,080
going to get so much more value out of your AI,

1188
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,880
regardless of what AI you use.

1189
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,360
Because everything I just described,

1190
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,360
if I'm using cloud enterprise and not co-pilot two years

1191
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,240
from our event today, I would get the same benefits

1192
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:50,920
because it's still using the connectors

1193
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,120
retrieving against the Microsoft 365 data.

1194
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,960
All these things are still true, regardless

1195
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,720
of the ecosystem, although of course,

1196
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,560
in Microsoft it's even more pronounced.

1197
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:01,080
Awesome.

1198
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,280
I have to check the terrata.

1199
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:04,800
It's really cool.

1200
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,160
But I often use the white papers and the studies

1201
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,760
from Chargate.

1202
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:15,020
But let's say concrete how when people say, OK, we will use

1203
00:48:15,020 --> 00:48:15,920
Chargate.

1204
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,640
How fast you will say they can get AI ready and how fast

1205
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,120
they can see, I say, a return of invest immediately.

1206
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,680
So a lot of people when they first

1207
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,480
run it, there's this tenant report.

1208
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:30,960
And this doesn't need to be shared yet.

1209
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,400
But if you just think about governance,

1210
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,040
you do like a tenant assessment.

1211
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,760
When you run that, you're going to get immediate visibility

1212
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,360
into a high priority things that you should address.

1213
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,080
And some of them are really obvious.

1214
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,840
Like I think everyone except external users for private teams

1215
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,040
with confidence, labels and stuff on them.

1216
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,600
Those are pretty good indicators that there's a mismatch,

1217
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,640
and there's something that we can resolve there.

1218
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,760
Or you have a lot of active content that, based on all

1219
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,240
these other indicators, have the owners, and like I said,

1220
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:01,800
who are the owners and are they active or not,

1221
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,960
and all these other insights.

1222
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,400
And that allows you to say, OK, let's archive these.

1223
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,000
Let's bulk archive a bunch of these.

1224
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,040
So there are quick actions like that.

1225
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,080
And then there are more actions within there.

1226
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,480
Licensing is a great example.

1227
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,720
I find this very frustrating with Microsoft.

1228
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:18,120
We've been doing this for many years.

1229
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,360
But we've really got co-pilot licenses.

1230
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,040
We just had this big E7.

1231
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,480
I know you talked about it on your one of your last episodes.

1232
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,640
Those are big cost impacts.

1233
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,400
And you really like to see a way to say, not just,

1234
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,560
do we have the license allocated, but is it being used effectively?

1235
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,480
So being able to do that report and share

1236
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,120
a data as an example saves a lot of time.

1237
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,160
So there's definitely low-hanging fruits

1238
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,000
that any hero admin could go and do,

1239
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,560
and resolve a bunch of issues.

1240
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,520
And then there's going to be this nice backlog

1241
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,720
of other things you should do that might require

1242
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:51,280
that back-and-forth with the business.

1243
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,160
But now you have the data, you have the insights,

1244
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,200
you have the way you can click, it's easy to do.

1245
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,600
But now it becomes a discussion of, we need to discuss it

1246
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,200
as a team of committee, whatever it is.

1247
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,400
And so I think that slows it down.

1248
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,520
The functional work, I think, is quite rapid nowadays

1249
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,800
in what I just described, especially if you're using

1250
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,320
MCP or something, which I think just unlocks

1251
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,880
so much more value with some of these solutions.

1252
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,600
And that's for more partners or people who are working

1253
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:19,640
in a proactive way.

1254
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,680
And they want to mature their own career journey.

1255
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,360
I would live with good tools, like share gate

1256
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,120
to the polls of the data and does all that hard work for you

1257
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,400
together so you can create really cool HTML presentations

1258
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,480
or you could take your--

1259
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,880
my favorite one I've done recently is we take the--

1260
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,640
every IT group has meetings, and they

1261
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,440
have different PowerPoint presentations in like

1262
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,480
meeting agendas, transcripts, et cetera.

1263
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:43,800
You take that data and you say, where

1264
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,840
could I insert these governance insights?

1265
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,560
Where's the natural place in our normal flow?

1266
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,360
Where I could bring these things up and maybe it could be a way

1267
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,680
to add value, context, or even action,

1268
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,160
like to drive an action that I want to take.

1269
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,480
And it's interesting because it'll analyze that and go,

1270
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,880
oh yeah, here's like this data point

1271
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,680
around these particular users and groups.

1272
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,800
It relates to this discussion that you're having.

1273
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,200
This is a great thing, so you can do a chat,

1274
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,600
a team's message follow up for it.

1275
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,160
You can send in a little email like this,

1276
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,720
but it feels like it's in the context of your flow of work

1277
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:15,640
because it's able to do that.

1278
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,880
So that's just an example again with a little bit of agent

1279
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,920
work, you can use co-pilot or something

1280
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,040
to look at, hey, I've got this governance inside where

1281
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,320
are the good opportunities where I could naturally float in.

1282
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,320
And then that becomes-- it just becomes natural.

1283
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,720
It just becomes a thing where I have automated prompt,

1284
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:35,800
and it runs daily, and it's basically like, hey,

1285
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,560
based on the meetings I have coming up today

1286
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,800
or the meetings that happened yesterday,

1287
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,240
what are some good opportunities for me

1288
00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,240
to be that governance champion and to insert some stuff.

1289
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,040
And it's like, oh, you're meeting with Sue who runs

1290
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,320
five SharePoint sites, great opportunity

1291
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,240
to bring up with Sue that, hey, these things are a bit overshared

1292
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:53,240
and maybe you'd like to archive two of them,

1293
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:54,280
like things like that.

1294
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:59,920
That's the way to get the crew up.

1295
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:05,520
But when we look a little bit in the future

1296
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,200
of Microsoft 365 governance, what

1297
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,400
did you think where--

1298
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,040
what is home--

1299
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,160
yeah, where do you--

1300
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:16,160
I don't know, I don't know anything.

1301
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:23,280
Where's Microsoft governance heading over in the last

1302
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,120
the next three or five years from your perspective?

1303
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,600
Yeah, I mean, OK.

1304
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:30,480
I'll say three things.

1305
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,680
One, it's less your SharePoint governance

1306
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,000
or your team's governance.

1307
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,480
Your everything governance, right?

1308
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:38,400
And I think that's important.

1309
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:39,920
So I actually talk to a lot of people

1310
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,560
who don't play with PerView.

1311
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,000
And I think PerView has a lot of really powerful tools,

1312
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,840
and insights and capabilities, and it's growing really rapidly.

1313
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:49,680
And I think that's a good example of an area

1314
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,600
that I think more people should play with.

1315
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,440
I think everyone who's listening to this,

1316
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,760
if you're never going to pervue person,

1317
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,800
at least dip or toes into it, I think that's important.

1318
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,480
Because there's a lot of tools within that for DPSM

1319
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,240
and others like DataSPM, Data Security Posture Management,

1320
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,920
other tools where you can do some scale motions,

1321
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,040
and it's kind of in English, but it's the future.

1322
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,840
So I think that's important.

1323
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,680
The second one, besides being more holistic,

1324
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:17,680
and all of us need to do that.

1325
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,440
So get outside if you're in a Teams ad menu,

1326
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,440
you're just a SharePoint adman, stop.

1327
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,960
Like make your way out of that into the broader thing.

1328
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,560
The second thing that I think would be important

1329
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,760
for the future of this is to understand,

1330
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,160
when I say the scale is different,

1331
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,240
it's, we are in the early stages of AI today.

1332
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:39,120
And you're gonna see is the complexity of agents

1333
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,840
on top of agents, on top of like inference engines, et cetera,

1334
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,360
is gonna be all about extracting value out of your data.

1335
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,080
And it'll be more and more consequential

1336
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,320
to make sure that the best data is well governed,

1337
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,160
is understandable to AI and more.

1338
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,360
And so while traditional library sciences might go down,

1339
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,280
like people don't need to search for stuff

1340
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,040
in the way that they use to,

1341
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,960
it doesn't mean that the value of understanding your data

1342
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,120
and doing all this work around it is not valuable.

1343
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:10,120
It really is.

1344
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,320
And that includes creating new artifacts from existing artifacts

1345
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,360
with AI support or with IT support.

1346
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,560
So like sometimes there's a lot of work

1347
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,360
that needs to go into a data model.

1348
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,040
And the data model is extracting from like 10 different things,

1349
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,520
like a price sheet and this and that and all these other things.

1350
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,920
But it needs to be maintained in a way that makes sure

1351
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,400
that it's always looking at the right data sources, right?

1352
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:30,760
And there's real work there.

1353
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,960
You see in scaling up in organizations.

1354
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,600
So that's, I think a broad positioning statement,

1355
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,840
but I think in general IT,

1356
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,240
we need to get in a position where we're able to do that deep work,

1357
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:45,280
you know, that deep focus work that works is really valuable

1358
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,480
around data and working with a business line

1359
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:48,960
to business and the business to do that.

1360
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,120
And I don't think that's gonna happen

1361
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,480
if we're all busy fighting fires.

1362
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,720
So we got to get away from this like very reactive model.

1363
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:57,680
And I'd say the last common I just have on governance is,

1364
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,360
you know, if the word governance isn't working in your org,

1365
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:01,600
you can call it whatever you want.

1366
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,200
And I think that's, you know, a key concept here, right?

1367
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,200
You know, I'm just saying it's that work of organizing,

1368
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,120
optimizing, you know, securing, sure,

1369
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,120
and being responsible for the business content that we have.

1370
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,200
And whatever that content in data is formed as.

1371
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,360
And I think if you're in that space,

1372
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,440
even as people, unfortunately,

1373
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,080
we will see disruption there, even if people move around

1374
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,080
and things like that happen,

1375
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,320
you'll be in a relatively more longevity space

1376
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,760
because you know, you're all about the shared data

1377
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,240
that many of these models don't have.

1378
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:39,200
It's, you know, the arguably the competitive insights

1379
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:40,880
that you have as an organization.

1380
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,600
So, so yeah, I think that's an interesting, you know,

1381
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,880
I'm not saying it's future-proofed or career-safe,

1382
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,840
but I think the closer you get to doing that,

1383
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:49,880
I think generally speaking, it's pretty resilient

1384
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,360
compared to some of the other disruptions.

1385
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:53,520
Like even the innovation side,

1386
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,800
I'm seeing a lot of people really impacted by the business

1387
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,240
taking on more of that, you know, prototyping

1388
00:55:58,240 --> 00:55:59,960
and building with the vibe coding, whatever.

1389
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,160
And so, you know, it's a, it's always a turbulent space

1390
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:04,000
on there.

1391
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,560
I think the data on the governance side tends to be a bit more

1392
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,320
stable because it's policy and law driven

1393
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,840
and compliance driven and all these other layers to it.

1394
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,440
- Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

1395
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,320
Well, once the word was, what's, what makes

1396
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,800
governance sexy, what, what use you,

1397
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,960
when you have any people that want to like this world?

1398
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,440
- I mean, it's kind of cool, right?

1399
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,440
Like, you know, I like people in tech, right?

1400
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,280
So, you know, there's a course other,

1401
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,520
we're talking about Microsoft 365 governance mainly

1402
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,840
in today's discussion.

1403
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,760
Of course, there's, you know, there's Azure data governance,

1404
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:39,520
there's also other layers of governance.

1405
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,400
I've personally, I've never really loved like,

1406
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,000
being really deep in fabric or Azure because I miss the people.

1407
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,200
I miss the complexity that people add to everything

1408
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:50,040
for governance.

1409
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,360
So the very thing that's the most frustrating part, you know,

1410
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,040
of, you know, agent in Microsoft 365 governance

1411
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,120
and power platform governance, whatever you wanna call it,

1412
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,240
is the thing that I actually like the most,

1413
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:01,000
it's the, it's the people dynamic.

1414
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:06,000
And so, for me, I look at this lens of governance,

1415
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,880
I find it really fun because anything I do in the space

1416
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,320
is empowering people to do more.

1417
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,200
And it's empowering people to do more safely and responsibly.

1418
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,360
And it's almost always at a scaled model

1419
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,480
where I'm not individually coaching people.

1420
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,760
I'm really thinking about those patterns, those playbooks,

1421
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,480
those, those things that I can do,

1422
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,000
that gets sort of the noise, the clutter, you know,

1423
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,720
just makes it easier for people.

1424
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:31,520
And I think that's sexy.

1425
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,360
I think that's a really fun space to be in

1426
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,280
where I can still play with these tools and use them myself

1427
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,400
to do those actions that I just described.

1428
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,880
But I don't, I don't need to be, you know,

1429
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,120
in a medical organization doing the surgeries.

1430
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,800
I don't need to be, you know, in another organization

1431
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,160
doing like really complex financial planning or something.

1432
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,280
I get to do, you know, governance planning,

1433
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,440
I get to do technology planning.

1434
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,280
And, you know, just, again, I think there's a few lenses to that,

1435
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:58,440
but I've always liked adoption.

1436
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,120
And I've always liked governance because I think that

1437
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,560
revolves around people and a lot of the complexity

1438
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,200
run into relates to the way people use it or adopted

1439
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,680
or the people part of it.

1440
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,760
So that's what I think is sexy.

1441
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,680
But I'm sure there might be listeners who are big data people

1442
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,000
and they love Azure and like deeper stuff there.

1443
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,760
And they're like, you know what, the data is sexy and cool, right?

1444
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:21,120
It's just for me, it's that hardness, the, the,

1445
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,720
why it's such a hard problem, I think is really related

1446
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,200
to the way people in processes intermingle and orcs.

1447
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,040
Yeah, cool.

1448
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,680
So I have a rapid fire out in every recession.

1449
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:31,760
Oh, yeah, go for it.

1450
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,640
You saw short, short, short questions and short short.

1451
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,760
And my answer is never go together, but I'll jump at best.

1452
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,200
So central life governance are distributed ownership.

1453
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,560
I think I'll always distributed ownership

1454
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,880
where centralized governance is about templating, automation,

1455
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:48,520
improvement and how do we do better?

1456
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,120
So visibility should be centralized.

1457
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,560
We need to have that because you need to be able to look at things

1458
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:53,520
holistically.

1459
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,760
I think this is really important, but absolutely in order

1460
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,640
to scale and maintain things, you've got to have a distributed model.

1461
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,080
You know, we're honestly distributed.

1462
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,520
Oversharing technical program or organization problem?

1463
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:12,480
Okay, so I agree is going to always happen for lots of reasons.

1464
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,440
It's a natural part of business for oversharing.

1465
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,920
What I think is important is that there is different tiers

1466
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:19,560
or levels of impact.

1467
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,920
So when you have certain risks, risky risk oversharing,

1468
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,320
that's what we're talking about.

1469
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,400
And there's ways that you can actually, I think,

1470
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,840
with signals and other things, especially modern AI tools,

1471
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,760
you can really determine what is safe and unsafe risk

1472
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:34,440
for your threshold as your organization.

1473
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,120
And that can be different for different works.

1474
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,520
But based on the information type and everything else,

1475
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,000
but I will definitely say that is absolutely a technical problem.

1476
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:47,320
Like we should be very clear that we have a business authority

1477
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,080
to do that and make sure that people aren't doing unsafe things.

1478
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,640
And we should be resolving that.

1479
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,280
Anything outside of that, that more nebulous thing,

1480
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,320
where the cost consequences are pre-minor and things like that.

1481
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,480
Then I'd say, yeah, that's going to naturally happen.

1482
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,840
Let's just try and make it a little bit less impactful

1483
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:06,280
if it affects things like relevancy in AI and things like that.

1484
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:10,400
So they think there's still, there's an optimization expectation,

1485
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,800
an expectation I need to support that.

1486
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,960
But yeah, I would say it's technical for the majority of those,

1487
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,000
especially based on risk.

1488
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,480
And is there one or a key metric?

1489
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:26,280
Like every governor specialist should check all look at?

1490
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,480
You know, we used to say like, there's a co-pilot readiness score,

1491
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,280
all these like aggregates.

1492
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,080
I actually think I'm really leaning towards this idea of sprawl maturity

1493
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:40,280
as a way to measure this and it feels defensively and easier.

1494
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,960
Because I've tried a lot at other things over the years.

1495
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,760
And it's just intuitive for people to be like,

1496
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:50,200
not all of governance, but specifically my workspace sprawl.

1497
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,360
My sharing sprawl.

1498
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,080
Like these particular categories you can measure

1499
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,640
and you can feel like, is it we had a four?

1500
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,680
Or we had a managed or even an adaptive state,

1501
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,160
like a five, like a high level state?

1502
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:06,240
Or we, you know, the earlier ones are like unseen, you know, visible.

1503
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,840
Do we have an inventory, right, of what's going on?

1504
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:09,920
But we can't action it.

1505
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,280
We're not controlling for it.

1506
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,560
I think those are really good indicators for where you are.

1507
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,840
So I'm actually a big fan of like those very IT,

1508
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,240
you know, centric leadership centric data points that are in that radar

1509
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:22,640
that I was mentioning earlier.

1510
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,080
But you know, outside of that ROI, of course,

1511
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,360
has someone to spin at this for a long time,

1512
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:32,160
but you know, see return on investment and how are you driving that?

1513
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,440
And that's true for everything from IT spend

1514
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,640
and behind the scene stuff to, you know,

1515
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,920
this latest AI innovation work that we're doing.

1516
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:42,120
And so yeah, that would be the mecha-mega thing

1517
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,000
if I'm talking to a senior exec.

1518
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,880
But as a IT pro, I find my,

1519
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:51,760
netrick that I'm really loving right now is that maturity of each sprawl type.

1520
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:55,960
And that helps me kind of think about where my gap is as an organization

1521
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,080
and where I want to improve.

1522
01:01:58,080 --> 01:01:58,840
Yeah, awesome.

1523
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:04,760
So what's the next guest, Altrou, in which, what questions will you ask?

1524
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,760
Oh, man.

1525
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,880
I mean, you can definitely invite like Sam Altman and others,

1526
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,040
they'll find it like, where is the next model?

1527
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,600
No, I think, you know, there are,

1528
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:20,000
there's so many amazing people doing amazing work in Microsoft 365.

1529
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,520
I think sometimes there are people like go back to time and time again.

1530
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,280
And so like Susan Hanley on Internet,

1531
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,280
comms governance is like, because I'd spend a lot of time in that space,

1532
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,080
I really just find she's so good at like taking a lot of this complexity

1533
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,920
and simplifying it to like, here's what you should do

1534
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,640
and why it's consistent with what we've done before.

1535
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:46,600
Um, you know, Diego is somebody, uh, uh, Diego de Silva and I have done like some other cast and stuff together.

1536
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,720
I always like his, he's got like a, he's just excited.

1537
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:50,640
He's very exciting guy.

1538
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,960
So he's a great person to like share perspectives.

1539
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,760
And again, he does a great job of, you know, simplifying some of those key messages.

1540
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:57,760
I don't know.

1541
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,640
The list goes on more cashmains like one of my favorite people for like those brainworms.

1542
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:05,040
Like, he'll say something and like, oh, that's such a good way of framing that problem.

1543
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,080
And then it's like in my head for months at a time,

1544
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,520
uh, you know, from a more technical perspective.

1545
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:12,040
Anyways, I'm going to keep going on those list.

1546
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,840
I got like 300 people in my life there that I would recommend.

1547
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:16,840
Yeah.

1548
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,640
Yeah, awesome.

1549
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:23,040
So then, um, yeah, when, uh, I say people,

1550
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,920
I listen to us can take one, one key lesson from this session.

1551
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:27,720
What should it be?

1552
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:32,520
You know, I think, of course, everyone knows governance needs to be continuous.

1553
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:37,240
I think my takeaway is that I think sprawl

1554
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,320
and the things that make governance challenging for Microsoft 365 is noble.

1555
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,800
It's identifiable and it's measurable even.

1556
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:49,720
And if you have those things in place, uh, with whether it's tooling or just like your own

1557
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,320
approach, uh, I think you're going to be in a really good place.

1558
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,720
So don't feel like it, it's, you know, it can feel overwhelming.

1559
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,080
It can feel a noble, it can feel an impossible, you know, tilting out windows.

1560
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:04,680
It is not, uh, and, uh, and I think any incremental movement and progress there,

1561
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:05,800
uh, it should be celebrated.

1562
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,560
So if anything might take away is, you know, pat yourself on the back.

1563
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,120
You, I'm sure everyone who's listening has done heroic things, uh,

1564
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,640
you've done a great job making things better.

1565
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,200
Just keep doing that magic that you're doing because it does make a difference.

1566
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:22,120
And I see you, uh, you know, if, uh, if no one else does and acknowledge the hard work.

1567
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:23,280
Yeah.

1568
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,240
Then, Richard, thank you for joining me today.

1569
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:31,200
Uh, I'm talking behind, uh, the simple questions of how to deploy a co-pilot

1570
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,520
into much more important questions of what kind of

1571
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:40,840
M665 and, uh, or, um, and we act really giving a, a, access to, um, yeah,

1572
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:46,440
I, I, I, doesn't erase years of, uh, Microsoft 365 decision.

1573
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:46,920
It's in here.

1574
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:49,160
It's them that permission we created.

1575
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:54,120
So the content we keep up, the teams we are on that share point,

1576
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:55,760
science before God and so on.

1577
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:56,920
Uh, yeah.

1578
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,800
And, um, that means AI readiness isn't just an AI project.

1579
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:02,000
Uh, project.

1580
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,560
It's, uh, yeah, Microsoft C-Lion organization operation governance.

1581
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:08,000
It's, it's a challenge.

1582
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:13,480
And, uh, I think, uh, the people should, should take this challenge, uh, it will be helpful.

1583
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:22,920
And, yeah, for all the listeners, you find all the links, uh, from, uh, Richard in the, uh, show notes, uh, on the M665 and podcast page.

1584
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,000
And, yeah, thank you again so much for joining me today.

1585
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,520
Awesome.

1586
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:28,200
Thanks for having me.

1587
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,540
Thanks for watching.