From Garage Band to Symphony Orchestra- How Microsoft 365 Governance Creates Harmony at Scale — with Heiko Brenn

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Welcome everybody to EM665 podcast. The podcast where we explore the technologies,

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strategies and people shaping the modern Microsoft ecosystem. Microsoft 365 often

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being like a small garbage band. A few people collaborate, everyone knows what

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the other are doing and very little format coordinating this week's trial.

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At the organization's growth, more people join, new instruments are introduced and

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everyone being in different rooms. Teams are created with owners, SharePoint sites,

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Accumulate outdated content, guest-richain, access longer for the intern, naming

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conventions become inconsistent, applications overlap, nobody knows which

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workplace is still active and the governance of the intro that only after the

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environment has already become difficult to control. But those governance have to

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mean more restriction, approval process and bureaucracy or it provides the

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structure that allows people to collaborate more freely, security effectively.

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So my guest today is Hikoblan, Director of Product Marketing at BCC, the

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Business Collaboration Company, where he helps organizations bring governance,

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security and automation to M Microsoft 365. Hikob has more than 30 years of

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experience in IT. Through his career, he has worked as administrator,

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consult, product manager, technology evangelist. I think this gives him a really rare

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perspective that combines technical deepness, business requirements,

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product strategy and the real implementations. He is also frequently a conference

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speaker, podcast host, passionate drama and iPod music composer. He used lessons

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from dance, jamming session and orchestrates to explain why successful M665

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collaborations depends on thinning the right balance between free-dimended

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structure. Today we will discuss governance, maturity, ownership, life cycle

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management, automation, power shell, security, adoption and how organization can

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scale Microsoft 365 without turning collaboration into carriers.

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Hi, cool, welcome to the M665 podcast. Hey, Mikko, thanks for having me.

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Looking forward to our conversation here. Yeah. Yeah, awesome. Yeah. So,

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I go before we talk about Microsoft 365 governance,

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coach you, little introduce yourself and tell us how your journey began into IT

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and why you choose Microsoft. Yeah, sure, sure, absolutely. So, yeah,

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as you mentioned in the industry for more than 30 years, so when I started

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things like DOS 3.3 were a thing, which rarely people know nowadays. So, I

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actually started with IT more like, what's more like an accident I would say.

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I made an apprenticeship at the bank and they were looking for someone who was

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taking care of IT administration and I said, well, hey, why not? I'm doing it.

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And this is where I started with PCs, printers. I was programming printer.

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It's Cape sequences for needle printers back in the day. So, okay,

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that's baiting myself. So, that's a long time ago. And I first can

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touch with Microsoft technology actually with exchange. So, exchange 5.5 was my

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first Microsoft product I was responsible for and I loved it. So, exchange is

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really something that's kind of dear to my heart, I would say. And obviously it

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evolved over time. And there was also the first product, funny enough, who

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supported PowerShell in with Exchange 2007. And yeah, as you mentioned, so I did

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administration. I went to, I did consulting, I did migrations from IBM

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infrastructures to Exchange. I became a product manager, product marketing manager.

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And yeah, so yeah, we're responsible for many different aspects of IT and

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mainly in the context of software vendors. So, so, so it be-to-be software

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industry. That's why I'm in for like the last more than 20 years. And it's fun.

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It's ever ever changing obviously and it's something that really interests me

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every day because new things coming up. And yeah, so now today, as you mentioned, I'm

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with BCC director of product marketing. Yeah, working with Microsoft 365 with

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governance automation. And that's that's mainly my business part. And then on the

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hobby side of things, music is really what I'm passionate about. And this is how we

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came up with the idea of talking about this in this context, right? Yeah, so the word

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governance, it's used constantly, but different people mean very different

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things by it. What do Microsoft 365 governance mean by you? So for me, governance is

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kind of the balance between creativity, freedom, and structure/rule. So for many

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people, governance sounds like very strict, you know, you have to do this and this

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and this and this is not allowed. And even though that might be part of it, I think

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the overall story of governance is get to people, the possibility to be creative, to do

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their work the best way possible and keep the, let's say the bureaucracy part in the

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background as much as possible so that it's not becoming a governance, it's not

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getting in the way, but it really helps people to get their work done the best way possible.

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Yeah, I see a lot of people use different words and I think they have a little bit

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problem to separate what's the difference between governance, administration, security

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and compliance. Can you just a little bit tell us? So from my perspective, governance also

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I think has to do in comparison with, for example, let's say security governance really

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has also to do with the processes, with the, with what people in finance, in HR, what

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kind of, how they work and what kind of guidelines they need to get their work done best

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way possible also to fulfill, obviously legal requirements. And that's, that's I think

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another important aspect of the whole governance process or implementations because there is

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obviously not a one size fits all. So rules have to apply according to the different parts

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of the organization. So with HR, legal, obviously, the rules have to be much more strict than

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maybe in sales and marketing. And so this, this is for me, this is the, let's say the governance

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part of things. Security is something that I see as, let's say, the underlying foundation

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in the sense of, you know, you need to have MFA unique, you have all the security measurements

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and applications and blaze and governance for me sits on top of that and is concentrating

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on, let's say, the people business and make it as easy as possible for the people to do

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their work, but still in the framework of that's, yeah, according to the rules and so based

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on the company guidelines. So will you say there are, I say, universal governance principles

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or must every organization create its own model? That's a good question. I think there are,

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there are some, some principle underlining, let's say, building blocks that I would say belong

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to governance in general, the way that they are implemented in detail, that might be different

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for every organization. That's what we see with our projects as well. But if you look at things

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like life cycle automation, things like ownership, things like reporting, templates, policies,

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things like that, I think this is something that belongs to governance in general. The interesting

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question is then how to really, yeah, feel that with life. Like as I mentioned before, like,

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okay, what's the right policy for teams or for for guest access for legal and HR compared

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to sales or development or marketing that there is, I think it's important to really make

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sure and make it clear that there is, in my perspective, and what we see is there is no

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one size fits all. So this is really where it becomes interesting to also understand the

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business of each and every organization to then define the right rules, the right policies,

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and then implement it accordingly. And that's another topic, I think a lot of companies

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discash is it's who should be responsible for governance? Is it the IT team, the security

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team, the complete team, legal, the leadership or it's across functional group, who should

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be from your perspective responsible? So from my perspective, I would say governance

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in general is a team sport. So it's really about involving all the different, I would say

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even everything that you mentioned is part of the process. So meaning if you have people

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in IT who are very passionate about it and they want to implement, you have a good reason

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to implement governance, but they don't have a sponsor on the sea level saying, okay,

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this is an important thing, we need to do that. Then, yeah, it's not going to work. So I think

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those roles have to be involved and they play their role. So for me it ideally starts at

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the top where there's obviously someone responsible and has the role to say we need on a

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corporate level, we need governance, we are responsible to meet internal and external

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requirements, rules, policies, laws, maybe ISO and EU regulations, other things like that

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so that on the board level, on the leadership level, there is someone responsible. Then of

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course it breaks down to the head of IT to the sea source, the security people, obviously,

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that need to be also involved and having especially when it comes to reporting a very important

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role. So, and then the, and that's the thing, another aspect that sometimes also is not

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really in the focus, like the people in the line of business, I think that as I mentioned

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at the beginning, I mean, I, and it's like, ideally the governance does its job somewhere in

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the background. So people don't really, don't really see it, they don't really realize it.

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But of course, then they need to be aware of it and yes, there are obviously technologies

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and we at PCC, we provide technology a tool to do that, but you have to have the people

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in place as well. So making these people aware of why this is important is something that

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is also really something that we try also to get across that it's not just, you know, I'm

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throwing a tool over the fence and say, okay, government, governance solved. So that's

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not how it works, right? So, so from the, from the top down to the bottom, so to speak, there

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needs to be there are different, different owners for different, for different parts of,

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of governance and the line of business people, they need to be in the, in the game as well,

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because we need to make sure that coming back to previously reset, okay, there's a, there's

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a combination between freedom, creativity and structure. So we need to make sure that we

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implement just the right structure so that still people can, can do their business the best way possible.

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And yeah, that's awesome. So that's a little bit dive into today's topic. We will take a little

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bit about music, making music and Microsoft 365. Where did you see an analogy here?

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Well, I think there are, there are actually, there are a couple of metaphors between, between

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music and in governance. So in music, and you mentioned at the beginning, you know, I'm,

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I'm creating like tunes on with Garage Band on my iPad, for example. It starts with a creative

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process, you know, you're, you're creating, I don't know, creating a drum beat or a chord progression or

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a melody or I'm finding a title that inspires to do something. And that's great, but then, so that's

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a creative part and you create this different, but then of course, the song has to be, has to have

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a structure. It starts somewhere, it has an intro, it has a verse, maybe a pre-chorus and a chorus,

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and an outro and whatever. So, so, because without that, you know, people will get lost, you know,

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they hear something and if there is no structure, they cannot follow the song, because it's,

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it sounds confusing and well, maybe for some people that might be okay, maybe like, like,

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maybe like free jazz, you know, which is very special, but still there, even there, there is,

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there's, I'm not a jazz expert here, but, but there is a structure because people play together,

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and that's the, that's the other thing. So, one thing, the first thing is you have this

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compilation of, you create something, and then you put it into a structure, and if you do it alone,

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like, when I'm doing the Garage Band, that's okay, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in control of everything,

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but if I'm playing with, with a band, then of course, I have to make sure that the drummer and the

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keyboard player, the singer, the guitarist, the bass player, they play in the, in the same,

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the same tuning, basically, they play with the same tempo, so that it all makes sense, and this is,

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this is like, like, in Microsoft 365 as well, right? So, if everybody is creating its own,

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its own teams, and they're, they're inviting guests, high-crazy, and nobody is taking care of

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if they're still needed, or everybody creates SharePoints just as they, as they want to, because there

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is no, there's no policy in place. It, it creates chaos, and that's, that's like, like, again, like,

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making music with, without a structure, or playing in a band where every musician might be, might be

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super professional, and, and super technically, in, in their, in their music, but if they don't play

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together, and if they don't listen to each other, then you, you get noise, right? You don't get music,

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and, and for me, this is something that is, there, there is, there is really some,

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a little cheat to between Microsoft, between Microsoft 365 governance and, and, and music, and there,

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there are, there are more, right? You could sing of, um, no, well, okay, I'm starting with one

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single musician, then maybe you have a band, and think about, um, having an orchestra with, I don't know,

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17 musicians, and a choir with 100 people, and obviously you need a conductor,

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you need someone who is taking care of the sound and the dynamics, and, and again, also the,

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the rhythm and the tempo and things like that, because the more the bigger, um, this musical

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entity gets, like, with an orchestra, it's, it's really huge, right? It can be really huge. Then,

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without a conductor, it's, it's, it's bound to be, to end up in total chaos. Um, and so, and again,

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this is, I think another great, a lot of G, because if you have, as, let's say, you start, or in a small

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company, um, yeah, you might have, you have maybe a, a band leader, so to speak, who is, where you're

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defining your rules and the taken care of that, they are really, uh, in place, at the bigger the,

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the company organization gets, the more important it gets to really do, to have, have a conductor,

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who say, okay, this, this is, this is our, our rules, um, and with the induced rules, people can,

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can work and can, can, can do that job, but there are rules that people have to follow, because otherwise,

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again, we are, we are creating noise instead of something that, that really makes sense.

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Hmm. Um, yeah, it's interesting and, uh, it's often also called,

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orchestration governance, so it's, our cast, it's, it's a little bit in there, but I, I think,

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a little bit about SMEs, so, um, is this more, there are more a garbage bed or have they also,

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or the conductor, the definerals the all the I don't know or can they stop small and become bigger.

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Well, I think, that's a good question. I think this is this...

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well, the size of the organization, I think, is one part. The other part is, of course, is a small

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company that is making business in a highly regulated industry, then no matter how small or big you are,

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you have to follow certain rules. But from what I would say, from my experience, is that,

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obviously, with smaller companies, your policies might start at a...

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yeah, let's say like a think big start small, you're implementing your first policies,

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your first governance rules and as the company grows, then of course, yeah, the governance policy

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is growing as well. So I would say that, because there's also often a question like, okay, what...

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when should I start organizing, planning, designing my governance rules and then start implementing it?

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And I would say, but with way too long, yeah, start as soon as possible, because

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especially in a small company, when it starts to grow, then it becomes even more difficult to start

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to implement it. So I would definitely start at an early stage with some maybe more simplified

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rules, but have something in place already. And again, if it's a regulated industry, then of course,

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it's... well, it's mandatory, right? So it's not something that it's a nice to have, but it's a must have,

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for sure. Awesome. I think a little bit... where do you have a jam session? What do a jam session

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teach us about creativity and self-serve and how can we take this learning through to governance?

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Well, so a jam session is a good example where a group of people start to play together,

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and maybe the first time, right? So there's a drummer and then maybe a guitarist, a bass player joins in,

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maybe a singer, so it might be spontaneous. Everybody joins in. Everybody is motivated, brings its idea.

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Everybody starts playing. And then again, this is something that at one point, okay, you

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need to have some kind of structure. So let's say the typical jam session starts,

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what I experience is like, let's play a blues in, I don't know, in D major, because then you have a 12-bar

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structure. Everybody knows. So even without knowing the people who are playing the instruments, if

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you're saying, okay, let's play a blues in D minor, everybody knows what to do. When the

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the chord change appears and things like that. So that's when you start grooving, so to speak, so you

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the musicians play together, they groove together, then maybe someone is making a cue saying,

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okay, now we're changing, maybe we're changing keys or something. So even then, you need to have

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someone who is like a conductor saying, okay, we are an orchestrator saying, okay, now, okay,

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well, we're coming to the end, or maybe we're changing the tempo a little bit. So this is, I would

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say like the same, when you think about the adoption of Microsoft 365 and including obviously

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governance, it's like you're starting with implementing a couple of teams, people start using it,

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the adoption is excellent, people like it, then you get into the next phase where there are more

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teams, there are more sides, there are more groups, and still maybe nobody really knows what everybody

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doing, but it's still working somehow, but at some point you need to say, okay, now we need to have,

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again, we need to have some rules. And for the for the jam session, when you start it, it's typically

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like the example, let's play a blues in F major or whatever, everybody knows what to do, but if

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you're growing and maybe if new musicians come in, then yeah, rules start to make,

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start to make sense, and I would say it's like the same with the Microsoft 365.

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Yeah, awesome. I think a little bit, yeah, a successful band needs the structure, but it also needs

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room for, I say, interpretation. How can Microsoft 365 governance preserve that freedom?

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So this is, of course, again, a question about what kind of rules you actually need from your internal

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from your internal view or from the external regulations. I mean, with the build-in functionality

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from Microsoft 365, of course, making sure that maybe not everybody can create teams as they like

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or they have predefined templates for different areas in your organization is something that really

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starts to help to get a structure because what we see oftentimes is that especially in teams, it's,

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well, yeah, like a few years ago, the people, the organization just opened the floodgate, so to speak,

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right? So everybody was creating teams as they like with, I don't know, all kinds of, no, well,

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no naming conventions typically, so it's very difficult to find information and make sure and

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finding out which teams belong to which, which part of the organization. So these are things as a

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starting point that really helps to get some kind of structure with naming conventions. For example,

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also, and that's true for teams, it's also true for guests and also to make it very obvious that

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when what kind of guests again belong to which kind of project, for example, so because guests are

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typically something that are temporarily used, not all the time, but often it's project based so that

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it's, so people and IT have a chance to identify, for example, guests who are not

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necessary anymore because the project ended already like like three, six months ago.

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So these are things that I think are as an easy entry into governance policies and then

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of course the other thing is then really kind of enforcing it and making sure it's adopted.

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That's then the next important and yeah, interesting question, how to enforce this actually.

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Awesome. That's one thing that we have talked about the conductor and we do on the MC65 show, we use

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every show as a song and we use Zoom or for this. Do you think the AI can be came the conductor

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in a government environment?

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Ha, that's another interesting question. Even you mentioned just soon, it's something that's

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very interesting, but maybe in another context. So I think AI can help and is already helping to

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maybe not so much defining governance but making sure that the structure that has been defined is

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is really in place and it's in force and identifying anomalies, identifying where maybe things are

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drifting because maybe someone is for the reason finds a way to maybe get around maybe in conventions

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and say okay, I have another idea. I want to name my teams and then to automate that so that

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let's say you haven't sort of speak AI, infused governance or yeah, or conductor as you mentioned.

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So I think that's definitely something that helps. The analogy to Zoom is a little bit difficult because

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here you have not a lot of control about what's actually happening in the background.

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But AI definitely is something that, well if you think about agents, then of course you have

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you have AI in the center of governance anyway. So for the controlling part I would say yeah,

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having AI to be the conductor or to be the, let's say, to be the role

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that is sort of, sort of, sort of, sitting at the mission control and identifying where anomalies

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are taking place for me makes absolute sense, yes.

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Did you think Microsoft 365's service requirement, different musical arrangements? For example,

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virtual teams, SharePoint and OneDrive have their own governance rhythm?

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Well, I would say it depends again on the, if we keep in this picture, the part of the depends

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on the section of the orchestra, so to speak. So let's say there is maybe there needs to be a

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different rule for the string section and another policy for the horn section, for example,

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and another one for all the percussion. Because they have different roles, because they have different

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responsibilities, which kind of comes back to what I mentioned earlier like yes, it makes sense

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to have different rules for HR and legal because it needs to be much more strict. For example, if you

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invite a guest, the guest needs to sign electronically an NDA that might not be necessary at all

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for a marketing project with an agency or with a prospect in the sales area.

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So I think having this opportunity and having this flexibility, especially for bigger companies,

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it's I think really key for a successful governance implementation.

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Okay, interesting. What would be the N665 equivalent of the sound check before a concert?

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Okay, that's a good question. So the interesting thing is before the sound check, and that's something

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I think is also part of the whole story here. So to be able to really to make a sound check,

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the stage needs to be ready, the light needs to be ready, everything. So that kind of

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is the chop of the roadies. So if you're if you're if you're attending a concert, you're standing in

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the start of the stage and the show is going on, it's like, wow, it sounds great, it looks great.

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So obviously they made a sound check and everything. But before that, all the roadies to care of the

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stage set up the cabling, the instruments, the technical equipment, the lightning, and so on.

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And then so that that's really a nobody system, right? So if you are attending a concert,

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you see the musicians on stage, maybe sometimes you see the roadies just in the background doing

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something because maybe I don't know, a drum fell off the stage, they have to bring it back and

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whatever. So the roadies are very, very important part here. And then you have the sound check.

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And the sound check for me would be as when you talk about the equivalent to Microsoft 365,

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I would say this is where you do your test runs when you when you start implementing your your

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governance policies. And you say, okay, there is a test group we have from ideally from every part

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of the organization. We have people in the project, the project team, and we start we are starting

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to roll out the policies and we are starting to testing them for for a period of time, maybe

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two, three, four weeks, sometimes maybe a couple of months depending on again the size of the

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organization. So that's for me that would be the the the the sound check phase. So to speak. And

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during that time, of course, again, coming back to the roadies, you might say, okay, and we need to

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adjust something, you know, the I don't know, the lights I'm not configured correctly or maybe the

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monitor boxes or the in-ear sound is not correct. So you start to adjusting things so that when you go

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life, so to speak, when the show begins, everything hopefully is perfect.

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Interesting. Yeah, that's it's it's cool. And let's let's talk about one of your I think topic you

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are famous for. And this is the governance maturity. So what do you do in in major Microsoft 65

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and variables looks like is it? Yeah, I don't know. And yeah, can you a little bit explain here?

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How did you see it? Yeah, you mean the different maturity levels that that we

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yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, there is that there are different while there are different maturity

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model or frameworks for that to to identify well, where do I stand as an organization? Yeah, am I at

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the very beginning or is everything already in place and I only need to measure monitor and maybe adjust?

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The the place that the policies that are in place. So the the initial phase is really where where we see

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let's say that's oftentimes when we when we go to customers and they say, okay, yes, we have,

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we have a problem with with team sprawl with guest users, brawl. We we have no consistent

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ownership in our for the objects in Microsoft 365 like shape on sites and so on. So so this is where

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we see this is like the initial phase that there might be some talk processes, but typically there is a

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high high real or high percentage of sprawl and and and and I'm going unorganized way of using

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Microsoft 365 and then what we do and that again doesn't have to do with the tool. It's really

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about the process and the concept where we say, okay, we need to we need to help you to

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implement your first basic policies that that needs to be in place before we take the next step. So

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so things get starts to get in a more managed way. So we start with with naming conventions from

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we're making sure that that every every guest, every team has an owner. We might already define

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things like, okay, are this can can we implement something where we can make sure that a team that is

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based on a on a on a on a project already has a best before end dates, how to speak. So that's a

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it's it's it's going to be archived after six months automatically. So so step by step getting rid of

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inconsistent ways of doing things and then if we go if we move forward, then the next level where we

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start to standardize as much as possible where we also so that might be against, for example,

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life cycle management where we have different policies in place, different templates for for the

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for different parts of the organizations and start also to monitor the activities so so that we

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are able to but the customer is able to identify there is something there's something going on like

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for example, you well normally there are let's say 15 new teams being created each week and all

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of a sudden it becomes 500. So this is where, okay, we we have a threshold reached where where

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somebody should take a look at that, why why that actually happens and then step by step

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implementing all these rules and policies on on the organizational, wide level and starting

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yeah to obviously to measure it into monitor it and then at this stage then it's about if that's in

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place then you are at the level where you say okay now okay we are we are optimizing we are

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optimizing we are tweaking policies that might also be then the the phase where depending again

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depending on your organization you know you might have new companies becoming part of the existing

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organization so we have to we have to implement that existing policies for new parts of the organization

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so that we we can really have a dynamic way of adjusting this different

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policies as as necessary so coming from avoiding stopping the sprawl in general make it

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more consistent, more controllable, measurable, monitoring and then being able to to change it as

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as necessary. I think when when you're the conductor and it's it's a hard job you have we have you

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must really good listen to all all the instruments and you must hear oh he has something something wrong

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and a lot of people I think the most people don't hear it they're sitting in the construct but they

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don't hear it when something it's a little bit wrong so what to what have you to listen on

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governance what's although I think warning signs here it's something yeah yeah starts to get

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get wrong. Yeah out of tune maybe so yeah so it's a good question it's about when do you start

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hearing the wrong notes because as you said maybe at the beginning nobody realizes it because maybe

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it's just one musician out of 80 but then if it becomes almost all of a sudden they're like like

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five who are starting to follow the wrong notes then there's obviously something wrong and you

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need to take action so this is this is what we see again take the example of this for example naming

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conventions where where it's important to identify the drift yeah it's almost like

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like it does decide state configuration where you say okay this is our rules and we need to we

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need to find out if somebody is not following the rules are trying to get get around it and

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having this alert mechanisms or maybe even having the the possibility to let's say self-healing

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so to speak so where as with the C where if it's detected the drift it automatically goes back to

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how it has to be best based on the on the on the governance policies so and to identify it and

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to let's say again there are different different ways so naming conventions might be one or as I

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as I mentioned earlier like all of a sudden okay there are much more guests being created by

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or our teams maybe even by a specific user so this is where really the monitoring part becomes important

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to identify that and to get automatically get an alert on that before it gets from just you know one

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wrong tone to 50 or 100 wrong wrong notes that are being played so having this kind of

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an early detection possibility really is important here and the the reason other that let's say the

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the source of this when something starts to drift can be can be yeah different things could be

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it could be a quantity of object that being created naming wrong naming conventions

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also if if you're measuring let's say the the size of your let's say SharePoint sites where all

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of a sudden you have a lot of data being being stored or being deleted maybe even even more interesting

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this is also in the context of user off-boddings sometimes a topic where where we see like okay

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this is the most maybe even more one critical most critical phases of a let's say of a user life cycle

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so what what happens in the last four or five days of an of an employee being within

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organization so taking care of that is is another important part here as well I would say

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let's let's talk about another I say yeah a little bit buzzword the Microsoft 365 governance sprawl

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what is exactly sprawl in governance and how how will you explain it as musician

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so the I would say the well the first thing that comes to mind and I think this is this is where

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where it started is like the team sprawl right where you have no policies in the sense of who is

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who is allowed to create teams again what's the naming convention what's the lifecycle

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management what templates to be used how to monitor everything I would say that that's still

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for many organizations a real a real pain point the same is true with guests I would say if I have to make a

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let's say a top five list so to speak of the what's the what's in the charts on top of

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of the what's the top of the sprawl chart the sprawl chart so to speak I would say teams is very

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high up there then then you have then you have guests for sure then you and you have

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also your your your share points sides but and then step by step you have the the other m365

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objects but the top two are definitely teams and guests and the interesting thing is oftentimes

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you might think oh good this is this is something it's a buzzword and it's well it should be solved

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for a long time but the interesting thing is that still a lot of organizations struggle with it

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then they and even in that's the interesting part the the first week I started with PCC we went

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to a trade show and I had some conversations at at our booth and there was one huge organization

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which will remain nameless obviously they say they decided not to implement any any policies

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for teams okay and the read well that that's where it gets kind of well I don't know but it's it's not

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what I would do but they say well you know it's like answer was like yeah we we don't really care

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and there's a how how can you not care because this might be this might be very risky if you don't

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know what's happening inside inside your organization and then he said yeah okay we're we're not

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sharing any information with external they have they have they were assured of that but

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that's I would say really something that I've never heard before and after that conversation because

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that was really like okay good luck because yeah so for from from from my perspective these are still

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the main the main topics and still for for for for for me and for us in the in the organization

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the starting point for for many many many conversations that we have about about governance because

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this is where also you could say if you do it right it's like it like a low hanging fruit because if

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you start solving that and that also and that's maybe something we haven't really touched on but

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that but but what what I see here as an important topic is also that once you have these policies in place

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and you stop sprawl you can also start

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delegating this task in a secure way to the line of business people so you it's not it's not an IT

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it's not so let's say you still have to you have to still think you have to contact you in the background

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and the policies are in place everybody knows how how to play their instruments and now you can

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even you can even take someone who is maybe not in the in the in the in the limelight so to speak

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of of the orchestra to do things because the guidelines are clear and so as a conductor you

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don't have to care you are you you are able to care less about this things because you know yeah

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it's it's organized we we have we set our guardrails and then it just runs by the people who are

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who know how to play their instrument which would be in this case that the people in the land of

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business and and and your company when the BCC what role do you with this play on on on on a concert

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you mean we as with with our solution yeah so so I would I would say this is in general I would say

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the conductor for sure to to organize that but also I mentioned the role this role of the roadies

390
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:56,960
which are often well you never see them but without them nothing would work so I would say this is

391
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:03,840
something this is for the for the work in the background so to speak so defining the policies

392
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:10,960
so the provisioning is automated the reviews are automated making sure that teams are being archived

393
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:18,080
and deleted after the right period of time that then there are reviews scheduled automatically so

394
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:23,760
this is this is something where where the roadie starts to build it and then you have to conductor

395
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:31,680
once it's built that says okay now now we are we are ready and now we are going live and we are

396
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:38,160
all get orchestrating it and we are making sure that every instrument plays the right tune

397
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:45,200
with with the right with the right tempo and the right dynamics so that's I would say is

398
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:51,600
the role of BCC and and and and aphematic in this case which is the name of the of the solution

399
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:59,520
also oh we're a little little bit around run out of time so I have in every session a rapid

400
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:08,640
fire round so okay and I give a short question and you give a short short answer so teams are outlook

401
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:14,480
I have to say outload because I'm an exchange guy right if

402
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,280
PowerShell were Microsoft Graph

403
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,160
PowerShell

404
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:30,240
governance or adoption which comes first governance self service or approval

405
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:36,960
it belongs together so first self service but we need to have approval

406
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,200
okay and policies of our principles

407
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:52,080
what policies are the product of principles so again principles first and then policies

408
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,560
okay a drum or guitar drums

409
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:10,560
yeah the governance control organizations implement to to late what did you think

410
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:18,080
oftentimes I would say this is one of the biggest mistakes when it comes to governance

411
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,800
they're just waiting too long they are we do it later

412
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:29,600
yeah because I mean you have to you you have the management up your neck saying okay we need to

413
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,200
roll out teams we need to roll out one drive and and we engage and whatever and then

414
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:42,480
everybody who's saying ah but wait a second we should think about governance it's like okay this is

415
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:48,160
this is this this is the you know this is the person who's who's who's stepping on the break

416
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,640
for the project but in my in my perspective I would say this makes perfect sense to

417
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:59,760
to really not just think about governance before you do that but really start to implement

418
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:05,520
at least the basic policies before you before you start a roll out because

419
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:12,800
and we we we see this in many conversations that yes just this as you as we had talked about

420
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:18,640
before this sprawl things in teams and guests and whatnot is it's real and it's because of that right

421
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:26,640
because we need to roll out yeah just start press the button and then and then the damage is done

422
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:41,200
yeah good governance in one sentence it's the perfect balance between freedom creativity

423
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:53,920
and and structure okay awesome so yeah then my last question is if people taking one

424
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:58,480
yeah one thing from this conversation what should it be

425
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:08,080
I would say if we if we go back to the music scene I would say

426
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:17,920
the most successful bands necessary I'm not the ones who was with the with the best

427
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:24,720
individual musicians is it's the one that where they really play together to be successful

428
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:35,760
and I think this is this is like the purpose of of of governance so to to come back to music

429
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:42,480
playing a great song with with all the musicians make it sound great be successful

430
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:47,680
and it's I think that that should be the role of of governance

431
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:58,560
awesome yeah then my last question is who should I invite next and what secret question

432
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:12,240
should I ask him ah who well I'm just I'm just saying the T Titu that you already interview

433
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:17,040
Rafael corner no no no okay you you you should do that

434
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:23,840
a secret question I don't know

435
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:32,800
what question makes him nervous let let let let's let's judge it this I don't know

436
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:41,840
maybe what's his favorite band I don't I don't know how well is his sleep because

437
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:48,800
they they got a little sun beginning of the year so he can you can tell a little story about that

438
00:57:48,800 --> 00:58:00,000
I'm sure yeah then I can say I go thank you for joining me on the m65f powers and showing of that

439
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:07,040
Microsoft c60 out of governance do's not have to be birchously system designed to stop people from

440
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:12,720
from working the best governance operation much like the structure behind great music it traits

441
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:18,160
a shagrhythm establish the clear responsibility and gives people enough freedom to contribute

442
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:24,800
without alone the entry performance to yeah decent and cows my biggest takeaway from this

443
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:30,160
conversation is that Microsoft c65s products are generally caused by a configuration itself it's

444
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:35,760
caused by missing ownership in clear life cycle process and yeah this connected controls and

445
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:46,080
mental atmosphere creation so yeah yeah can no longer a longer a pace with the organization so yeah

446
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:52,080
governance must must therefore become an operational capability works plays me clear

447
00:58:52,080 --> 00:59:00,560
proposed and accountable owners uh external access must be reviewed in active content requires

448
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:07,680
a life cycle and yeah thank you for for for staying here and for all the users all the links from

449
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:15,360
high school you found on m665s and podcast website in this episode and yeah thank you for staying

450
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:21,120
new and easy thank you me go was fun