What Enterprise Software Can Learn from Video Games with Sandra Kiel [MVP]

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Welcome back to another edition of the M-C65 podcast.

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Today we are diving into a topic that most organization completely underestimated.

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When it comes to AI adoption, co-pilot, CASE and digital transformation.

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Because here, the reality company spent millions on M-C65 power platform, co-pilot and custom

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applications.

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They invest in training, change management and governance, yet many of those solutions

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stril with adoption.

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Why?

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What is the problem in these technologies?

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What is the problem that nobody actually enjoys using these kind of apps?

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My guest today is Andrew Akiel, Microsoft MVP, Entrance Speaker and Community Builder,

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who brings a unique perspective into the Microsoft ecosystem.

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Senator Common-Lights years of experience in gaming, interactive experience, Microsoft

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C65, co-pilot and power platform to answer a fascinating question.

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How can we work or how can digital work become more innovative, motivating and human?

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So why comes under the show?

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Thank you very much, Melco.

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Yeah, thank you for the intro.

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I'm really happy to be here and talking about my favorite topic.

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And yes, let's start.

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Yeah, cool.

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Can you, before we dive into the topic, can you just a little bit tell about your background,

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how you found your way into the Microsoft ecosystem?

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Oh, you know my age.

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It's a little bit a big age, so old age.

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So I have really a long career, or I spend really a lot of time with implementing SAP systems.

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I think 20, 25 years at the end, I stopped all these regarding a burnout, because

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I burned out, not on technology, I burned out on organization and leadership.

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I burned out on politics and big companies regarding implementing SAP.

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So that was my big change, and I started working for a company which also has a service,

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the Microsoft ecosystem, and I got really interested in this technology, because for me, Microsoft

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was only word excel and some other tools.

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And now from this moment on, I saw a lot of interesting things about what's also inside

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this word Microsoft.

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But I struggled also in this company about leadership and about organizational things.

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So I decided to move again and to move in another direction.

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And this not a direction was self employed.

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After a short time of self employing, I found it together with Angon, Ezer, our own company,

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it was EventPunks.

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And it was during the pandemic.

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And you know this time, can you remember this time?

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Yeah.

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Yes, all offline events switched to online event.

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And what all online event did very worst was interaction in these kinds of online events

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or online workshops or whatever.

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They did the same like an offline events.

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And this doesn't work.

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Because in the virtual room, you don't have the visibility of the speakers.

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You don't have faces.

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You don't have chemicals.

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You don't have this kind of energy.

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So you have to bring this energy.

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What do you know?

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What we all know from the in person events, you have to bring this in online version.

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And this is where we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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And then we started to work with Microsoft Teams.

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But what was the specific moment when you realized game design principles called solve real real real business problems?

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It was a project together with a Microsoft partner and Microsoft about bringing the.

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The 900 certifications in a game for students and for younger adults or a learner.

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And this was really one of our coolest project in the beginning.

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We developed a city, a kind of big city, a Microsoft city.

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And in this city, you, you found all 900 certifications as a kind of challenge.

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Yeah.

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It was not about learning what you learn in Microsoft learn.

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It was more about experience.

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What you have learned in a real world scenario.

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So probably we had for the P L 900.

253
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We had a kind of university where you have to come in and solve a lot of flow problems by.

254
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By using redstone and open the door for the students only who have an entry pass.

255
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Yeah.

256
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So, and that this is a kind of real world scenario, which you can also do an app platform.

257
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Yeah.

258
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And for AI the same, we figured out a lot of AI scenarios for the AI 900.

259
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And where you can explore the potential of AI and it is a long time ago that we did this project.

260
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Today, we all talk about AI at this time, AI was only one 900 certification.

261
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Yeah.

262
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And it was really a cool project to get up with Microsoft and the partner of Microsoft.

263
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And it was the moment where we decided, OK.

264
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This is really cool for learning for adoption because what we get as a feedback was from all the learners.

265
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And we had over 900 learners in this world.

266
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They all say, now I understand it really, not only on paper, not only for the certification.

267
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I understand what the course means.

268
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And this feedback drives us today to do what we do.

269
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And you also, I think you have a talk about, yeah, what is about team building in Minecraft.

270
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Yes, yes, yes, yes.

271
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Oh, you can do all things in Minecraft.

272
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Yeah, not only team building team building is one of the best things for Minecraft because you can create a safe space in Minecraft where all people can do what they like.

273
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And they can also work together in a team and can learn more about each other.

274
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So what you often have in companies is that you have teams with extra word people and introvert people.

275
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You have the nerds and you have the the the the Chinese and in a real world scenario, there are some kind of boards where you put all people inside.

276
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Chinese there, the nerds there, the introverts there and the extra words there in Minecraft, all people have the same know how it depends on can you play or not.

277
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And most mostly there it is like that the nerds can play better and the introverts can play better because it's their world.

278
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And then it comes to a change in the team understanding because the loudest people are not able to play and the silent people the introvert came and helped them.

279
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And then the moment drops when the louder say, oh, you have really leadership experience and you have really leadership skills how you can help me in Minecraft.

280
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So this was also one of the moments where I had ghosts go skin.

281
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Yeah, when a really extra word marketing person said to a to an internship, hey, you have really leadership skills.

282
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I didn't know that in the past, but now I see it.

283
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So this this is for bringing teams together to really understand each other talk to each other on another level.

284
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So so Minecraft is more working together to get your goals.

285
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I think normally I will say companies more like Mortal Kombat.

286
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Or yeah, sometimes it's like counter strike teams against another team, but you can play this also on Minecraft.

287
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:47,080
Okay, but would that know what something interesting, I look at your session by the count and there it's one of your folks was I think nobody wants to use your ad.

288
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I think that's title. It's a little bit provocative.

289
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What do you mean by that?

290
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And this is a really easy way. When when we as a game developer or game designer have a look at this kind of typical apps.

291
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We see a screen where you have to scroll and scroll and scroll and you never see the end.

292
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Normally you are overwhelmed about all the fields, all the buttons, all the non directional things which you have in this typical really typical business apps.

293
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And from the game perspective, since the Atees, Atees, games do this much more better.

294
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Sometimes structure a game or a app or a UI in different parts where you always see where you are not this kind of endless scroll downs.

295
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You see always, this is your first step and you have to do four more.

296
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And if you have the first step done, then you get XP like a kind of experience points or a kind of recognition about what you have done and it feels much more better than endless screen.

297
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And then what always business apps.

298
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Yeah, struggling with is the feedback.

299
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You click a button.

300
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In the best case, you see, okay, data are saved.

301
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In the worst case, you see error 404.

302
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Yes, that's the problem. These are only two points.

303
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:45,080
So what games really good can is giving the player feedback.

304
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Why games this do is this is not a mandatory app which you have to use games are fun games are for the time where you don't work.

305
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So games has to be or have to be a motivating UX and UI business apps are you have to use a business app as an employee.

306
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You have to use means not that you don't have as a designer of the app you don't have to care about the human side of the app.

307
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So in my opinion, if a designer of business apps putting more to focus on experience and on the human side, yeah.

308
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And they can steal or borrow something from the games then business apps first business apps are more motivating for using and what's much more important.

309
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The quality of the result of business apps will increase because when people do or use the business apps with a more motivating focus.

310
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Then they also will do better quality in in in the data or in in what they do in the app.

311
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So this is what we have experienced a lot of time that the quality is the quality of the data behind the app is always dependent on the experience in the app.

312
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Is this a little bit clear because it's really hard in English to explain?

313
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:47,080
Yeah, I think I have an extra some of your your your your online speaking and there's something you say often I say I compromise it a little bit but your your companies are paying people for fighting the stuff every day.

314
00:18:47,080 --> 00:19:02,080
I think yeah, this and you explain a little bit that yeah, the UX is often not not so or the experience is for the users is not so good.

315
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And so we have this I think flow or technology side and we have the human side why companies don't care so much about their about their their human resources.

316
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,080
Oh, I don't know.

317
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:35,080
It's first of all when when you talk to when we talk to potential customers in the in the more business like area.

318
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There's always the first question.

319
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Oh, our employees are not gamers.

320
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Yeah, so this is the first fail because it's not about making an app game is yeah or making an app childish.

321
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It's more about there are mechanics mechanics from the games which you can implement in a normal business app without any kind of game is or childish.

322
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Yeah, so it's only the structure of how you think about the process.

323
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Yeah, when the process is really a step by step process then do it as a step by step process.

324
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Yeah, not as an endless screen.

325
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:36,080
Yeah, when you have in mind that the most button is the refresh button then focus on these refresh button instead of five other buttons.

326
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So make it more obvious for the users what you want to achieve and for that we have in the business area we have to build user stories or not user stories user journeys.

327
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Yeah, when we when we develop games we always first what we do is we develop a gamer journey.

328
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The gamer starts the gamer do that then that happens then that happens then the gamer do that then and happy then happen to have it.

329
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Normally we also do this in business but not from the UX perspective.

330
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Yeah, not from the experience of the human behind the machine.

331
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We are always thinking in processes and we have to think in in a journey and if you think in a journey then the developers of apps will see where people cut off.

332
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:42,080
Yeah, because if they think in a human journey journey then they see always said I would not do this step.

333
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:55,080
And if designers of business process I think in this way then the UX will came immediately yeah the good UX will came immediately and then the next step is the UI.

334
00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:07,080
Yeah, the UX is how the users feel during the process and the UI is what you see and what you're motivating in the episode and both is in the right place.

335
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:17,080
And then you have the third thing and this is the accessibility because 20% of us are struggling with a lot of things about accessibility.

336
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So this is the third thing and these three parts UI UX accessibility you will always find in games.

337
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So we have to analyze what games really do to catch people yeah and we have to borrow these principles for business apps and then nobody will always people want to play your app because it's a fun app it's a motivating app and they see the purpose behind.

338
00:22:53,080 --> 00:23:13,080
Yeah and this is really important see the purpose behind the work for example should really really good example is the shift app shift app means you have to track your time every day yeah and we all know all know we have to to track our time every day or.

339
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:32,080
And if you forget something or if you forget to check out break or check in the break then the data is worst yeah and I know it from our company we are only 10 people and we have to shift app and we have always at the end of the month menu a month menu work yeah.

340
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:56,080
So we think about to develop our own shift app now which is more gamified which is more motivating which has a journey yeah so that people when they go to a break for the lunch break or anything say I have to check out yeah not or shit I have to check out yeah so this is what we want to achieve with this kind of apps yeah.

341
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:24,080
Yeah we have at Zimens we have some I don't know how I explain it was like yeah and we 20 for for the on for the players and you can turn it and something happens if you say okay I'm in a phone call and so on this was really nice because it's interact also with so I like it and yeah so I think.

342
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:44,080
At the start of of co pilot Microsoft I think yeah they're doing and the people was not so happy I was also was not so happy so so did you think this was in you X UI problem no.

343
00:24:44,080 --> 00:25:13,080
And co pilot is a complete behavior change and you cannot make trainings for behavior change you have to bring a behavior change you can always get only through a kind of habit loop yeah so it's not about you have a training you learn some prompts here is a website where you find your library of prompts and now let's do this and be productive.

344
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:41,080
And be productive and efficient and whatever this is not the way how a behavior change works yeah so what we know from games is the the thing it it calls call loop the call loop keeps you in the game yeah it it makes that you are not can leave the game yeah it's a kind of only it's also a kind of

345
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worth thing if the game is for younger people and they they grind and grind and grind and forgot the whole world but this the mechanic behind is the call loop and this call loop is a habit loop and if you for example build these habit loops in adoption processes yeah

346
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:23,080
did this doesn't mean that you have one training or two trainings or you have some kind of sponsors or whatever it's not about roles it's not about training it is about giving people the possibility to go your own way yeah to experience your own way

347
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:51,080
and if when I started with AI I'm a nerd yeah I like AI yeah I don't have I'm not angry about or I'm not worried about losing my job yeah but a lot of people are worried about losing their job through AI or through using AI so they have to start small with start with with easy prompts they have to find out how it works not

348
00:26:51,080 --> 00:27:19,080
not by giving them a prompt which works yeah giving them a prompt which works good but they have to experience what doesn't work yeah and they have to find out what they can do to improve the prompt so that the result is really good so it it should be also more curious instead of dropping a prompt from a library in the prompt field of co pilot take the risk of the problem

349
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:29,080
field of co pilot take the result and do the work yeah this is not the way how you build a lot a habit

350
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:45,080
I think a little bit like when I think about about games it's it's for it's it's it's when I apply games for me it's only I think 10 minutes about the other people around me and the world

351
00:27:45,080 --> 00:28:05,080
change and I don't know some hours later and yeah and but I think yeah this has some I don't know it's it's more motivating because they're doing some kinds like oh you can you got this little bonus here

352
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:23,080
or you can so so what can we learn from from these I think yeah game design principles especially in in the how company work or how change management work for for AI

353
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:45,080
there is a kind of framework which we should consider or use during adoption framework we have the adoption frame of work at car you know this yeah this focus also on bringing a kind of behavior

354
00:28:45,080 --> 00:29:03,080
change yeah but it's also a kind of boring thing it's a good thing but it's also a little bit boring and because it's it doesn't focus on the human side and the fears

355
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:17,080
and so the first thing what I would do in an adoption program program bringing five really important things or mechanics from games inside

356
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:37,080
the first one we all know this is the kind of XP the points the the reward actions yeah if you do something you get points yeah but not only points are important so we have to consider that this is a framework not a single tool yeah so the first one is points

357
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:57,080
the second one are challenges yeah you have to challenge yourself always when when you go in a game you have you get always a challenge and for the challenge you get points yeah then what you also really have to consider in adoption processes is where people are

358
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:25,080
so you have to find the possibility to individualize the challenges for example when you start in a game you have always the possibility to start in an easy mode in a medium mode or in a hard mode you also can choose roles yeah in which role you want to play you also can choose what you want to achieve in a game yeah so give people the possibility to decide what they want to achieve in which role they are

359
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:53,080
and how experienced they are this is really a fact but what we always have to consider when we talk about adoption processes yeah not one case fits all yeah so it doesn't work I always think this is so stupid how why do we that yeah and then we have challenges we have the individualization we have always competition

360
00:30:53,080 --> 00:31:15,080
competition we I think I would say 80% of all people in the world like competition and it's not about I want to be the best yeah it's also about I want to be visible I want to be nice I want to be more skilled more I want to be in a pit in a

361
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:35,080
pit in a particularly skilled better and so on it's always I want to be and these kind of mechanic yeah the mechanic of competition we should use this for a kind of adoption process and at the end you need the social elements

362
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:51,080
because sharing is caring we know that yeah and social the kind of social elements are going hand in hand with the kind of competition because we all like working in a team together in a team or building teams find the best people for the work

363
00:31:51,080 --> 00:32:07,080
and we can also consider that in adoption process yeah find the best people for my team and then straight go forward and win the challenge yeah and these these are different mechanics which play perfect together

364
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:23,080
but in a single version yeah only competition only points only leaderboards only rewards only social elements doesn't work so you have to consider the framework which makes game successful

365
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:44,080
I think some companies I think last board was Amazon they have point system how many tools you spend and you get this leadership but yeah I think this gamification ideas can I think several core

366
00:32:44,080 --> 00:33:00,080
that's not a terrible wrong somehow how we but we think about an ad or something or a adoption how we can prevent that's that's going wrong

367
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:12,080
completely wrong I think no no no no I'm okay since I would say five to six years there are some

368
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:30,080
companies which provides game design and game development there are a lot of really a lot of game designer and game developer at the market which are searching for jobs yeah so enhance your team with a game designer

369
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:48,080
not about designing a game it's about designing an experience yeah so if you have if you need if you say okay that's really interesting for me I want to I want to implement this kind of or I want to think about yeah higher a game designer or a game developer

370
00:33:48,080 --> 00:34:12,080
because they come from the human side they can also develop and design yeah they have also the possibility to make good UI and UX but they have the the glasses of a game yeah and they have the glasses of how you can motivate people starting with an app and finishing the app yeah or starting with a process finishing the process

371
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:36,080
a day such kind of game design again developer are so valuable for developing processes or developing business apps you cannot imagine how yeah so don't hire my people I don't I like my people and I do I never give up yeah so please don't hire others there are a lot of on the market

372
00:34:36,080 --> 00:35:04,080
yeah so yeah this is what you can do to to find the way you can also read a lot of books and play games like me and but the best way is yeah look at the market and you you cannot develop games by AI because you can also working against the blank paper syndrome

373
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:30,080
but you need a really human game designer to help you to develop a really experience in the business area so I think game design it's it's more about UX but we have a lot of companies a lot of developer what is different between I think classical development guy versus a game developer

374
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:50,080
game game developer can develop point and they can develop in the different modern languages yeah like Java JavaScript Python because most of the games are C sharp yeah or different kind of C sharp so they are really good developers

375
00:35:50,080 --> 00:36:18,080
but they have also the game focus yeah they develop a game they are not really good in experience design yeah but they are good in thinking like game developer yeah is this working can can this catch people yeah so it's it's more about the focus on when I am in the game

376
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:46,080
and then I develop a script when I develop a unit when I develop a system or a process is this a kind of habit loop or a core loop yeah so they have the experience which normal developers don't have because if you have a look at websites yeah you always see that most of the websites are only scroll down scroll down

377
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:58,080
if you see the website of a game developer yeah you can see they have a lot of game developers on the market spend a lot of time to make a good website about the

378
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:15,080
yeah and you see what they what they did in the past but you see it in a better way than a normal website so it's it's more about the experience what game designer have more than normal designer I would say yeah

379
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:36,080
the game experience the human side I think a little bit like gaming I play civilization for for example and it's it's like and I also develop but I have to when I develop I have to read so much I don't know Microsoft learn pages and then looking

380
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:50,080
the years and yeah it's it's it's taking hours when I start a new game I have I don't know five minutes intro and then I love learning by doing is that something we can bring also into

381
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:59,080
companies that that we have these I think more the emotional quick quick start I don't know how I should explain it.

382
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:20,080
Yes of course because you say it in the right word you start a game you get a short tutorial short intro and then you you try to find out what's the next step yeah this is a kind of play a journey but we are not all these kind of explorers we are also

383
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:41,080
we have in companies different game types or I would say game persons yeah you have the people who want to achieve the next big step and you have people you want you want to fight yeah more about the competition then you have people you want he who want to be more creative yeah

384
00:38:41,080 --> 00:39:04,080
building something cool or following a path which is nice or cute or whatever and then you have also the explorers yeah which always I'm an explorer yeah I always explore open world games like Minecraft it's my favorite because I can choose my own way yeah and I can

385
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:23,080
compete against me because I start a new world I start in a new biome I have to find out how I can survive the next night because sometimes I spawn in the in the desert there are no trees there are no possibility for sheep so that I cannot build a

386
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:44,080
game so I have always to find the best way for me to survive the first night yeah the first night is really important and this is how I play it's for me it's a kind of adventure game I can adventure myself I know some basic rules about a game that's enough to survive the first night and then

387
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:57,080
there are always also players who prefer a quest based game yeah they get a quest they see okay I have to find wood then I have to go to the next tree and there I have

388
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:12,080
wood if I have wood then the next quest pops up and say now you need stone yeah so the more guided one and this is what you have to find out when you develop a business app what works very well for this kind of

389
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:27,080
business app is it more than explore a game or it's more the quest based game or it's more the open world game yeah so this is always a kind of game design from the perspective of the target audience

390
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:45,080
yeah yeah what did you think I think power apps makers or builders I don't know I'll learn from video games what can they simple doing by themselves and should they

391
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:59,080
doing take all from video games or something what are things what they can do in itself and when I think they need to say okay I need

392
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:20,080
an expert or ask for help what did you think here there is one thing which is really important for power apps and this is the the the and then I call it the stop the

393
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:49,080
stop the lost moment the lost moment means give the users orientation where are the user or where is the user yeah for example you are in step three of four give them the objective this is a kind of overview about what you have to do in this step or in this process yeah

394
00:41:49,080 --> 00:42:18,080
and show them the progress how far you are so that they don't lose the motivation if you see you have four steps and you you did the first step then you see okay there are the next step the next step and then the final step then you have a target you see it yeah you can see it yeah and this is more motivating then endless stop the scroll of doom

395
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:37,080
yeah endless scrolling screen yeah this is really simple it's really simple orientation objective and progress this these are these are three things which you can easy implement yeah

396
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:53,080
structure your endless scroll screen in in chapters like in a book yeah think at the book yeah you have a chapter one you have a chapter two you have a chapter three you have a chapter four and you have the final chapter yeah

397
00:42:53,080 --> 00:43:17,080
and show people these four or five chapters and show them where they are probably you have a chapter four is a little bit bigger then market also as a little bit bigger so that people see okay one and two I will do it fast and then I have the third it's a bit more work and then I have the fourth chapter

398
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:29,080
this is the main chapter okay I need a little bit more work for the main chapter so that they always see what happened that's enough not more

399
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:45,080
so what do game I say there are progress visibility what what do games better than I think the normal normal business edit

400
00:43:45,080 --> 00:44:04,080
and they have always a story a purpose yeah you play a game with a purpose and this purpose is from the beginning beginning of a game on clear yeah

401
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:22,080
if you have a business app normal you don't know the purpose behind yeah so let's talk about the shift app the purpose of the shift app is to fulfill the government requirements

402
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:42,080
because all people have to track their working time but when you open the shift app you don't see this you don't see the purpose give people the purpose you we have to do this because it's a government requirement

403
00:44:42,080 --> 00:45:00,080
yeah and put this purpose in a kind of hero yeah I say always if you think about dolingo there is this small green guy which you always guide through the app yeah or which you always remind you that you have to fulfill your work together

404
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:20,080
yeah and this is a fun thing yeah it's always a kind of trigger you have to do your work today but it's a fun trigger yeah and if you for example give people the purpose that we have to do this because it's really important for our company

405
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:34,080
otherwise we get a kind of stress with the government if you don't have this data then the purpose is another one then only to say yeah please record your time

406
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:46,080
is this understandable yeah yeah I think also about games I think something what's make them really successful is the kind of feedback

407
00:45:46,080 --> 00:46:00,080
yeah I really get direct feedback how can we implement these direct or really fast feedback into business apps

408
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:12,080
in the same way there's no difference between a game or not if you fail you should know that you fail yeah if you die in Minecraft you see you died and you can respawn

409
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:30,080
yeah so if you if you don't play hardcore but if you died and you are died but you can respawn if you make any mistake in in an app yeah or in a kind of system sometimes you get a kind of arrow message it doesn't work

410
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:44,080
yeah or arrow five or five or arrow four or four or whatever and you don't see what you have doing wrong so the best way to get feedback it's the arrow punishment yeah

411
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:59,080
but this skill is this is valid for all other feedbacks as well yeah for example you have your four step screen yeah and at and after each step you get the information

412
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:21,080
okay your basic information from step one is now saved you are saved yeah instead of nothing yeah then after all four steps you get the information your your forms but what you have done your data are saved you are you are safe

413
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:41,080
people the possibility to understand that they are safe and if they are not safe if they have problems give this information as well yeah so good apps give the information about you are saved yeah the best apps give also the information you are not saved

414
00:47:41,080 --> 00:48:03,080
and this is the reason why and this is what you always have in games you get always to feedback you are saved or you died and you can respawn yeah I think a little bit say beyond technology I think one another point of successful games is the communities

415
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:13,080
how what can be learned from from gaming communities especially for tech community communities or why is community so important

416
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:37,080
Boa we see it in the MVP community there is there are a lot of experts which share knowledge and they got rewarded with the MVP award yeah this is a kind of game yeah and they build a big community around the technology yeah this is the best example what you can what we can talk about the MVP community

417
00:48:37,080 --> 00:49:05,080
and the reward himself is the way to go I know so many people which ask me how I can become an MVP yeah what should I do yeah and this is this is the catch yeah it's it's always the catch how I can become an MVP yeah so how I can achieve this reward yeah and yeah this is community building

418
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:33,080
and and games do this in the same way they have discord channels where you can get better roles yeah if you for example play the game in the best way or communicate in the best way in the community you get better roles you are supporter of the game you are a contributor of the game and so on so there are a lot of possibilities which we can learn from games

419
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:49,080
we can also learn from the MVP community because this is a community which works I think you you often mentioned that you're like your own speaking drone you started a little bit later than most people

420
00:49:49,080 --> 00:50:07,080
how did I think gaming help you to or what gaming tips can you give yeah I think new speakers is also one of your topics yeah to become or to start their speaker journey

421
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:33,080
nothing it's not about gaming it was it was a kind of I cannot explain it in English it was a kind of good mistake yeah I don't know what the word for this is accident mistake by accident or anything

422
00:50:33,080 --> 00:51:01,080
I was a project manager in the past and I I had a lot of presentations in front of a lot of people different people also unknown people but it was not the same like public speaking yeah and I spoke the first time in an online conference is during the pandemic and I was also organizer of such kind of online conferences

423
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:27,080
what I have learned there was that it's not so hard to start speaking and that it makes a lot of fun and it was more a kind of long term process yeah instead of oh no I'm a speaker yeah it was more this kind of not I want to become a TEDx speaker this is this not my goal yeah

424
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:51,080
it was also about how I can share the vision of this gaming yeah the potential effort or the potential the potential gaming experience how we can bring this in in in the business yeah and of course it was also a kind of say strategy yeah because we are

425
00:51:51,080 --> 00:52:19,080
in a really really small niche yeah and you can use this kind of conversations speaking sessions to bring the value of the the game thinking not only in the community also to customers yes that was a reason for that yeah today it's not the reason today it's only sharing what you can do

426
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:43,080
and and I learned that the customers will follow yeah but it's not regarding a quiet customers yeah so it was more a challenge and I think the biggest one the biggest moment for me was when I switched from German speaking events to internationally

427
00:52:43,080 --> 00:53:12,080
and I know it's a hard thing yes it's a hard thing it's it's like the the the end boss the the end boss the never ending end boss yes but what I survived was that it was really good feedback as well as my starting or when I started speaking English in conference it

428
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:37,080
it was more like struggling around 60 minutes presentation now it's much more bad and I always got feedback yeah two years ago it was not so good but now it's really good this motivates me yeah but but I never did this experience or I never did get this feedback

429
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:48,080
or got this feedback when I did not start with that so it was the right decision to start yeah speak internationally

430
00:53:48,080 --> 00:54:01,080
well one thing I think it's as I start for I don't know 40 years with gaming I think it's more yeah you can prove me wrong but I think it's more gaming

431
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:22,080
more a more a male topic and I think now we have I don't know but not not know a lot of women also so gaming as a woman and take what can be learned from from this especially for in the technology sector

432
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:43,080
yeah it's you are right yeah I would say in in the classical or typical game area you will find more male than female as well as the most games are a kind of shooter or more aggressive games

433
00:54:43,080 --> 00:55:02,080
yeah but you have or but what we seldom consider is that there are a lot of more female games yeah so I know that there are a lot of female play super Mario on the consoles or any other cool games

434
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:27,080
yeah and there are also a lot of fantasy inspired games not only the shooter yeah so Elden Ring yeah for example it's a wonderful game where I'm really sure that there are more female in the in the area than male but the communities are really if you see that the streamer

435
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:47,080
communities yeah there are a lot of male streamer and they do a good work and there are a lot of female streamer and that you also a good work but like our our world is yeah it's more about male instead of female so I always

436
00:55:47,080 --> 00:56:07,080
when I when I use Twitch I always mix really good between the females and the males I always have a look at the female streams so that I would say that they get the recognition what they need to get bigger and bigger

437
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:21,080
yeah but you are right the gaming community is like the tech community really male and we have to work hard to bring more females inside yeah

438
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:28,080
and and what's the chip how we can can help women start an in tech

439
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:42,080
or or make them I think there are a lot of women in tech but not in in this typical tech or disability let's call it visibility

440
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:48,080
and what's the tips here how how we can help women get more visibility

441
00:56:48,080 --> 00:57:06,080
and it's footwork you know one year ago yeah it's not so far away we we talked the first time about how we can improve your conferences with more female speakers

442
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:14,080
yeah and now you see in September there are a lot of female speakers inside yeah and it was hard work to do this

443
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:34,080
yeah we have the first thing what we all can do is taking care about yeah taking care about that when we organize an event yeah I'm also organizer of an event taking care about that we have the balance or find the balance or find a good quote

444
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:50,080
and it's not about quote because I'm really sure that women can or have the same good skills to speak and to transfer technology content like men

445
00:57:50,080 --> 00:58:08,080
yeah so it's not about making it make it it for a quote and did not care about the quality the quality is mostly much better because we women always do 100%

446
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:24,080
so you can you can be sure that the quality of a speaking session is in minimum the same like from a man in the same area yeah

447
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:46,080
but we have to consider it and we have to I know it's probably not the right way but we have to actively talk to women ask women to come as a co-speaker or ask women to submit or bring women to events show them how easy it is

448
00:58:46,080 --> 00:59:04,080
from the man side you have to invite women in a safe environment yeah to give them the possibility to speak or to give them the possibility to share their knowledge it's not also about it's not about speaking it's more about sharing knowledge

449
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:24,080
and if you start from this point yeah not you are a speaker so then you are a knowledge shareer yeah you have a lot of knowledge please share it with us yeah then the entry point is much more easier than say okay you are not a keynote speaker

450
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:42,080
yeah yeah that's the entry the entry point is always the most important thing because we women we always have this kind of imposter and man has to say but not in this huge elephant size

451
00:59:42,080 --> 01:00:06,080
yeah so yeah it's actively work on this yeah okay cool let's jump in the rapid fire round I say short percentage of you say what comes first on your mind power apps or power automate

452
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:22,080
gaming PC or console gaming PC first Microsoft products you ever love Microsoft teams yeah okay the best food you can take in brain and

453
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:40,080
when you get all the resources from Microsoft for develop a new feature or product what should it be the co-pilot body for adoption of co-pilot

454
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:50,080
okay the most underrated Microsoft technology the the the preview

455
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:58,080
okay a co-pilot feature you are most exciting about the co-work best advice you ever received

456
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:12,080
the best advice I ever received was from Daniel Laskowitz and he said if you are not loud no one can hear you

457
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:30,080
one speaker or one conference everywhere should with it watch the years PC coffee tea or energy drinks during gaming water

458
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:46,080
okay one thing people misunderstand about the gamification it's about game is it's about childish this is the most under misunderstanding yeah

459
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:58,080
yeah then send us thank you so much for joining me today I think one of my biggest ticket was takeaways from this conversion was that successful technology adoption

460
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:08,080
isn't primarily a technology problem it's a human problem for I think for decay the gaming industry has investors in enormous amount of time to understand

461
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:18,080
motivation engagement learning and user behavior yet many enterprise applications still ignore those lessons

462
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:28,080
so yeah as organization they invest heavily in Microsoft co-pilot power plot for my age of experience that companies that have been

463
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:38,080
yeah won't necessarily be the ones with the most advanced technology they are the most creative experience people

464
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:54,080
and develop apps people want want to use yes yeah so if you if the listeners like learn more about sangra I have all the links in the show notes and yeah

465
01:02:54,080 --> 01:03:02,080
thank you so much for for for being here Senra thank you thank you very much to having me here

466
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,080
you