Steps to Microsoft 365 Copilot Extensibility with Gautam Sheth [MVP]

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000
Welcome to another edition of the M665 show.

2
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,720
And today my guest is someone deeply embedded

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,620
in the Microsoft 6 developer ecosystem,

4
00:00:12,620 --> 00:00:14,880
Galtan Thess, and all the people,

5
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,680
you can correct me after all the people like,

6
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,280
I spelled their names wrong,

7
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,240
but he's a full stack developer.

8
00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:25,520
He is a five time MVP, a core contributor

9
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,880
to the Microsoft 365 PMP community in house mainly.

10
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,240
Mainly widely used tools like PMP PowerShell,

11
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,720
PMP.net, I really interesting in the last part.

12
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,880
He's also passionate about open source,

13
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,740
developer community sharing knowledge

14
00:00:44,740 --> 00:00:47,520
and lately has been deep diving into the world

15
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,960
of a Gendig AI, a corporate extensions,

16
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,360
and all this stuff.

17
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,200
So in this episode, we will explore Microsoft 365

18
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,120
development in the future of co-pilot,

19
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,360
open source collaborations, how AI reshading

20
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,560
the way developer built products today.

21
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,720
Galtan, welcome to the podcast.

22
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,440
- Hey, Michal, thanks a lot for having me.

23
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,680
How are you?

24
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,520
- Yeah, all fine, thank you for the question.

25
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,400
That's amazing, you are a five time MVP,

26
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:24,400
and a core member at the PMP team,

27
00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,000
and heavily involved in the CCC's Defined

28
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,120
of the Developer ecosystem.

29
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,520
How would you describe your journey into the Microsoft space?

30
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:42,480
- That's okay, it seems like a long time ago

31
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,040
that I started my career.

32
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,680
I started my career primarily into the old school

33
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,440
SharePoint server-side development side of the things

34
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,920
and gradually moved towards SharePoint online and SPFX

35
00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,680
and the 365 development stack.

36
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:08,160
My journey primarily was starting as a SharePoint developer

37
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,440
moving towards SharePoint consultant,

38
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,560
and then also working at Valo as a Valo

39
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,000
and then Starbase as a micro 365 developer,

40
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,080
and currently I work at Solutions to Share.

41
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,200
It's a German-Japan-based company,

42
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,080
and I work here as a full stack developer focusing

43
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,520
on the 365 development side of the things, so yeah.

44
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,200
- Yeah, I see in your profile,

45
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,200
you are really big part in the icon of open source community.

46
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:46,280
And now we have Microsoft more than in close to system.

47
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,120
What think you, or how is the contribution

48
00:02:54,120 --> 00:03:00,200
to the community especially in the open source world?

49
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,840
How hallowed you this?

50
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,840
Both systems or the thinking of how a company should run?

51
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:18,680
- Yeah, so I mean, I primarily focus on SharePoint

52
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,000
and the issues started around SharePoint PowerShell

53
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,680
in the Microsoft 360 size world.

54
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,120
So what used to happen is that Microsoft has this SharePoint

55
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,560
online PowerShell, and that was a lot more focused

56
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,360
on SharePoint admin side of the things.

57
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,080
So one of, did I understand the question correctly?

58
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,240
Will go, yeah.

59
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:51,120
What, how did you see this both worlds a closed ecosystem

60
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,240
from Microsoft and the open source world?

61
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,840
- Yeah, so the issue with the share, okay.

62
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,920
So what used to happen is most of the developers,

63
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,320
Microsoft provides their own first party PowerShell,

64
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,800
which is called SharePoint online PowerShell,

65
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,360
and that is primarily focused on the SharePoint admin

66
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,080
side of the things.

67
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,080
So the PLP PowerShell was created by Irwin von Hunen.

68
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,920
He's a multiple times Microsoft MVP,

69
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,360
and he found this gap in SharePoint online,

70
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,080
and then Microsoft 365 basically that if you want to do

71
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,680
targeted operations against a certain SharePoint artifacts,

72
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,320
such as site collection lists, files and all of those things,

73
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,960
the Microsoft provided PowerShell was not super good enough.

74
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,160
So, it was not super targeted for that.

75
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,680
So he created that, and what I did was I started adding

76
00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,160
my contributions towards that and improving the code.

77
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,160
So we found some gaps in the Microsoft implementation

78
00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,760
and the offerings that were there,

79
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,160
and we decided to make this better for the whole ecosystem.

80
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,000
So there are quite a few things, Microsoft is doing

81
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,360
that is open source, and of course there are quite a few things

82
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,360
that are super closed source, such as SharePoint PowerShell

83
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:12,200
and all those things.

84
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,960
So yeah, it's an interesting gap that we are addressing

85
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,960
via PNP PowerShell, and I think open source is like the future,

86
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,320
and I think they should open source

87
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,600
lot more parts of the system so that people can

88
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,160
contribute to it more and understand it and develop things

89
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:32,600
around that ecosystem.

90
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,720
- Yeah, I think that's really great.

91
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,720
But for the people who may not know the PMP ecosystem deeply,

92
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:46,080
what are the Microsoft C60 pattern and practice PMP PowerShell

93
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,160
and especially PMP.net?

94
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,960
Why are there so important for developers today?

95
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:58,560
- Yeah, so PMP PowerShell and PMP.net,

96
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,520
they both address certain gaps into the Microsoft 360,

97
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,400
so if development side of the things,

98
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,720
so PMP PowerShell is a collection of PowerShell,

99
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:09,720
is a collection of PowerShell.

100
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,880
And it's commonly it's that you execute against SharePoint

101
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,520
and it addresses real gaps that are present

102
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,320
in the Microsoft 365 ecosystem.

103
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,200
So NCM goes for PMP.net as well,

104
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,920
so there are quite a few PMP.net library as well,

105
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,640
is it's more like an SDK and then OpenMuted SDK,

106
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,640
which provides like a fluent implementation

107
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,000
of certain graph endpoints.

108
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,000
So both of them are quite interesting

109
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,720
and they address a certain gap in the Microsoft 365 ecosystem

110
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,040
for the.net stack.

111
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,040
And yeah, I mean that's the PMP as in Microsoft Pattern Practice

112
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,320
is it's again, it's not just for.net,

113
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,160
we also have quite a few things outside of.net

114
00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,160
such as the M365 CLI and quite a few other things as well,

115
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,160
which are there.

116
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,640
So VS code extensions are there,

117
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,480
quite a lot of things are there in this community driven

118
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,480
initiative.

119
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,680
Yeah, that's really interesting.

120
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,960
You are, yeah, it's really interesting

121
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,600
and you are also with your company DeepDive

122
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,720
into a governance solution.

123
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,720
But what excited you most about building M665 platforms right now?

124
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:37,880
So me, I love working on co-pilot and co-pilot extensibility

125
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,880
nowadays as well as using of the agent AI workflow.

126
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,880
So that kind of really excites me now seeing how far the,

127
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,600
you know, how far the agents have come up nowadays,

128
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,240
especially remember when co-pilot first launched,

129
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,000
it was like, I think it was a slightly better version

130
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,880
of autocomplete or sometimes it was,

131
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,480
but now it does the whole end to inside of the thing.

132
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,480
So it's really interesting and that kind of excites me

133
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,480
a lot, so yeah.

134
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,480
Yeah, I like later a little bit DeepDive,

135
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,400
especially in your experience in GitHub co-pilot.

136
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,680
But so I think a little bit about,

137
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,960
you have a lot of experience.

138
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,360
And if someone's starting with M665,

139
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,200
you will open,

140
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,640
they should say focused through teams, SharePoint

141
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:35,640
or I don't know, co-pilot or PNP, Graph API or co-pilot

142
00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,040
or something else.

143
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,720
Wow, that's kind of a loaded question,

144
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,920
but let's say nowadays a lot of focus is on co-pilot

145
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,320
and co-pilot extensibility.

146
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,080
So that's where a lot of excitement and a lot of investments

147
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,480
are happening and that's also where a lot of things

148
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,120
are being actively developed and created.

149
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,640
So that is one of the things that they can focus on.

150
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,800
And of course, SharePoint and Graph and T,

151
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,360
and all of them, they always from the core

152
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,080
of all these experiences, right?

153
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,160
So co-pilot, I mean, the M3 is five co-pilot,

154
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,720
extensibility and everything around that is always built

155
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,560
on the underlying platform,

156
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:23,560
which is SharePoint, Teams, Loop and Planner and all those things

157
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:27,280
which kind of power the whole M365 ecosystem.

158
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,720
So obviously the base platform is important,

159
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,560
but of course it also depends on what kind of development work

160
00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:35,920
you would want to do.

161
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,000
So yeah.

162
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,080
- Yeah, Loop is, I have so many talks about Loop.

163
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,720
It's more, from you what's the side,

164
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,440
yeah, I don't know, there's more something that I'd wonder

165
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,520
you can use, but no one uses it,

166
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,520
but yeah, Loop is getting so important in the last few months.

167
00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:02,000
But I don't think I think a little bit about, yeah.

168
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,880
About your career and your view of things.

169
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:13,600
When we look a little bit back from today,

170
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,200
like I say five years or so,

171
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,000
what major shift have you seen,

172
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,040
how organization approach Microsoft's,

173
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,800
Microsoft 365 costibization and extability?

174
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:32,200
- Yeah, I've seen quarter of major shift in that area.

175
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,280
So, I mean, how I see here is that earlier we all had SharePoints

176
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,800
server object model, then we moved towards a lot more client side.

177
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,600
We have SharePoint framework,

178
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,720
which is super actively used by a lot of organizations

179
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:46,560
around the world.

180
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,200
And now we also have Teams app development.

181
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,360
We also have a lot of co-pilot extensibility happening

182
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,760
as well around this area.

183
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,800
So that has been quite a shift from SharePoint focus towards

184
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,840
a lot more focus on things around Teams app,

185
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,600
as well as co-pilot extensibility around that.

186
00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,040
And yeah, yeah.

187
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,760
So, I mean, organizations are actively looking into moving

188
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,600
major things, it's some SharePoint towards more focus on Teams

189
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,800
or co-pilot around that.

190
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,560
So, yeah, that's an interesting shift that happened here.

191
00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:20,560
- Especially in your work,

192
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,840
I think one thing must be really important

193
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,000
that's the Microsoft Graph API.

194
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,640
What can you tell us about a Microsoft Graph API?

195
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,640
And what thing will happen in the future with the Graph?

196
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:42,720
- Yeah, Grass API, as we all know is kind of like the heart

197
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:47,040
and soul of the ecosystem powering basically every experiences.

198
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,560
So, it is also an interesting API built by different developers

199
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,840
and developer teams inside Microsoft who have their own opinions

200
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,480
around how to develop things.

201
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,640
And some of them are not super well implemented,

202
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,520
some of them are super well implemented.

203
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,480
And I think it will kind of evolve.

204
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,400
And now with the agentic AI happening,

205
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,440
I think we should see a lot more investment, more of it,

206
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,200
some graph itself and move towards agents

207
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,560
and agentic API kind of things, agentic extensibility

208
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:27,080
or those kind of things is what I think

209
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,240
might have been going forward in the couple of years, I guess, yeah.

210
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,760
- A little bit, before I got in these interviews,

211
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,680
I scraped a little bit of profiles

212
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:43,680
and I see you helped maintain major open source tools

213
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,720
with thousands of developers worldwide.

214
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,560
What do main and tame projects like PMP PowerShell

215
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,320
actually look like behind the scenes?

216
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,480
So, you can clear out some tips or the tech-card information.

217
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,080
- Hey, I don't do anything, I just delegated to the agents nowadays.

218
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:14,280
No, but jokes aside, yeah, it often takes a quite interesting

219
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,000
effort to help maintain these libraries

220
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,440
because they are providedly used

221
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,320
and anything or any change that we make,

222
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,320
it impacts a lot of users as well as developers

223
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:31,120
using these SDKs and PowerShell and Prousing Engine.

224
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,160
So usually what happens is we often,

225
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,320
because most of our people who use the tools

226
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,400
are developers themselves.

227
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:44,400
So quite a lot of times, they often are able

228
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,840
to reproduce certain issues super well.

229
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,840
So that often helps us and we look into certain issues

230
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,000
and we are able to fix it.

231
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,840
So again, all of these are all things that we do

232
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,600
outside of our active job.

233
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,160
So I like working on those things,

234
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,680
spending some time on those repositories,

235
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,440
outside of workers, volunteering some time

236
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,840
on certain issues, answering some questions

237
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,960
or if there is some discussions, answer some,

238
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,840
answer or put some inputs around those discussions

239
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:15,480
or those things.

240
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,160
So, yeah, it often takes a lot of time,

241
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,880
but also I like spending that time, right?

242
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,880
So because I like, and like a kind of a geek kind of person,

243
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,120
so you know, after work, what should I do?

244
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,080
Maybe spend some time looking to certain issues,

245
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,840
maybe help someone, you know, figure out some things

246
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,840
and those kind of things.

247
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:36,680
So, yeah.

248
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,720
- It sounds like you have the family.

249
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,960
(laughs)

250
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:42,800
Yeah.

251
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,000
How do you balance community contribution, future,

252
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,480
requests, governance and many tangy quality

253
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,240
and your all-source projects?

254
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:55,680
I think it's really interesting.

255
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,520
- Okay, belly-gated all-to-agents.

256
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,360
(laughs)

257
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,880
But we would highly encourage people to contribute.

258
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,360
We often receive a lot of contributions from new people,

259
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,120
from time to time, it's really encouraging as well.

260
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,240
So often most of them, when it comes to,

261
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:16,760
so from my side of the things,

262
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,280
it usually helped maintain power cell

263
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,800
and a bit around, progeny engine

264
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,040
and some around.net, PNP.net libraries.

265
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,560
So usually what happens is someone raises an issue

266
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,200
that they're running into in their day-to-day life.

267
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,960
So most of them are developers.

268
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,040
They execute certain things in their own organizations

269
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,400
against certain Microsoft 365 workloads

270
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,920
using the PNP tools

271
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,560
and sometimes they run into some issues

272
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,120
or sometimes they notice some gap that they wanted fixed

273
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,640
or they, for example, they want some feature

274
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,360
that they want to implement, right?

275
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,840
So there is that particular request on GitHub

276
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,160
and we often look into that and try to implement it

277
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,760
and see how that helps them plug that gap

278
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,120
or help them in their own day-to-day life.

279
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,680
So usually that's how it works often.

280
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,120
We also receive pull requests from certain people

281
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,400
because they obviously know how to,

282
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,080
the whole code is all open source.

283
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,600
So they can pick into the code, see what needs to be changed

284
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,120
and they raise the pull request.

285
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,120
So we review them usually against our own standards

286
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,680
or use some common sense around that

287
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,000
and if it looks, could it not be often

288
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,680
merged that pull request around that?

289
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:30,840
So yeah.

290
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,000
- Yeah, my next question is definitely,

291
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,240
how have you ever been a community contribution

292
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,200
or pull requests that surprised you?

293
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:48,560
I say, surprised you in a positive or negative way

294
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,800
that was where you say this was also a request?

295
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:58,680
- Yeah, often times we often have those kind of things,

296
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,320
some of, sometimes some scenarios are there

297
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,520
which we maintain the code so we know quite a lot

298
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,040
of things around that code, but sometimes people notice

299
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,160
some really obvious gaps or some really obvious errors

300
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,320
and then you realize that, oh wow, that's how they can do it.

301
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,320
For example, in TNP PowerShell,

302
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,400
we have a way to provision teams

303
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,760
and I think someone raised a pull request around education teams

304
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,280
or classroom, how to provision teams inside education tenants

305
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:33,160
and those kind of things.

306
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,560
And sometimes we even don't realize

307
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,720
that this was a gap and then we're often pleasantly surprised

308
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,320
like wow, that's an interesting pull request and yeah.

309
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,720
- You have often say, now I think,

310
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,720
I do a lot of my job and yeah, I really, I think,

311
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:59,280
yeah, I'm also doing it nearly with a high bother,

312
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,240
you especially in the way also governance and compliance

313
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,360
and then I, I don't know, I use cloud code for example,

314
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,720
build an app and then I ask, does it secure and say,

315
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,720
oh no and then you get all these, yeah, threads,

316
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,640
you have to handle and then you ask a next tool,

317
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,960
I don't know, Gemini or something and says,

318
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,720
oh no, it's also not secure.

319
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,720
So did you think really AI is,

320
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:34,120
could be the one thing to handle or did we need

321
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:39,000
developers in the future, they understand the process

322
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,200
and how it works and to deep dive.

323
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:49,080
- Interesting question about our own futures.

324
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:54,280
But yeah, I think developers will be needed

325
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,640
because they might be the case that they might

326
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,280
be fewer developers needed or maybe fewer people

327
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,400
who might be involved in developing stuff

328
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,400
but I think the base knowledge around certain languages,

329
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,400
certain gut instincts often helps in certain scenarios

330
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,080
because AI is really good.

331
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,400
I mean, he has evolved a lot.

332
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,240
It has, I mean, we've seen a lot of, at least on,

333
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,440
I mean, at least on Twitter and somewhere else,

334
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,120
I see a lot of people writing like million lines of code

335
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:32,840
in like a week and all of those things, right?

336
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,560
So that is really impressive,

337
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,480
but also impressive would be like, is it actually working?

338
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,840
There are some scenarios where AI will obviously miss

339
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,840
some things and that's where the developer instinct

340
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,880
or the gut knowledge should kick in

341
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,640
and that's where, you know, it needs that 2% push.

342
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,880
Maybe AI will be able to do like 98% of the work

343
00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,080
but maybe in some scenarios 2% that's where the developer

344
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,640
will kick in, that's how we see.

345
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:03,640
Yeah.

346
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,120
Yeah, I prepared for this discussion then.

347
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:10,760
There is one word I never have seen before.

348
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,320
It's the PMP.NET.

349
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,240
Can you a little bit tell about this?

350
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,160
Yeah, PMP.NET is an SDK.

351
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,440
It's a graph first SDK that is there

352
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,520
and it's also fluent wrapper around the graph API.

353
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,440
So it is really interesting.

354
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,880
It addresses certain graphs across these different workloads

355
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,720
such as SharePoint sites, Teams provisioning

356
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:42,040
and creation and updates as well as dealing with files as well.

357
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,080
And the second lead is also really interesting

358
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,240
around how we handle throttling.

359
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,000
So if you want to use it in large volume scenarios,

360
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,400
that's how as well we really handle it well in PMP.NET.

361
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,320
So if you want to make requests,

362
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,120
I'll use Microsoft Graph, PMP.NET and the PMP.NET SDK

363
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:07,120
might come into picture and help you out address some gaps.

364
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:09,360
So that's where PMP.NET is.

365
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:10,560
Yeah.

366
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,160
This is really interesting.

367
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,480
And one of the biggest advantages of using the PMP libraries

368
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,640
instead of working directly with the graph API.

369
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,640
So yeah, Graph API, PMP.NET is like,

370
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,360
as I told you, it's kind of a wrapper around the Graph API.

371
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,600
So one of the advantages is that we provide like a fluent API

372
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,240
to interact with the graph graph.

373
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,240
Secondly, we really handle the throttling

374
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,440
and throttling scenario is really well.

375
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,120
So it's graph as you know,

376
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,280
if you execute a lot of requests,

377
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,320
think of it like millions of requests,

378
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,680
you want to make certain graphing points,

379
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,280
you will obviously run into throttling

380
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,280
because graph will throttle your request.

381
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,920
So you need to handle those kind of scenarios.

382
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,120
So that's where PMP.NET SDK and PMP PowerShell,

383
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,080
both of them will come into picture.

384
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,400
We handle it for you and ensure that your requests

385
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,320
are gracefully handled and if you run into an actual scenario,

386
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,800
we provide an error around those things

387
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,920
and how you want to deal with that.

388
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,200
It is also providing a lot of configuration options

389
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,280
around throttling, for example, in SharePoint,

390
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,040
we have this read limit and when you're reaching certain read limit,

391
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,840
you know, we have a quota.

392
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,360
So if you reach like 90% of the quota,

393
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,440
then we start slowing down those requests and all of that.

394
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,560
But if you want to slow it down around 180%

395
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,960
and those kind of things, you know, you want to configure

396
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,800
how you want your application to execute

397
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,840
in certain scenarios, that's where PMP SDK will come in.

398
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,120
- Yeah.

399
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:50,120
- I don't know if you have seen the Wolf or Wolf Street movie,

400
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,000
there is a one famous scene that's a meme,

401
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,240
it's like, "Salve the spell."

402
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,720
- Yeah.

403
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,720
- When you sell me PMP.NET, how should I do it?

404
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,560
What why should I use it?

405
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,000
Why should I get it?

406
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,400
Okay, it's free, but how should I get it?

407
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:10,240
Bye.

408
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,440
- Yeah, a fluent API wrapper, better throttling

409
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,720
and error handling scenarios, that's how, yeah.

410
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,920
Compared to the first party hardest, yeah, yeah.

411
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:27,240
- What did you think how has the move forward

412
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,480
cloud first API and API first development

413
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,480
influenced the evolving of PMP tooling?

414
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:43,720
- I think APP world,

415
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,360
mainly see earlier, it used to target the three

416
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,520
on-premise scenarios, three on-premise plus sharepoint online.

417
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,120
So we had, we used to support SharePoint by 2013,

418
00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,320
2016, 2019 maybe, and I think of course, SharePoint online.

419
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,320
And then nowadays, we rarely see any people,

420
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,720
I mean, we have seen so many,

421
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,040
so few requests around SharePoint on-prem.

422
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,720
So that's how it evolved, you know,

423
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,600
so like, as a lot of things are obviously all cloud first,

424
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,840
they will never be delivered to the on-prem side of the things

425
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,280
and the graphs, as you know, is always going to be

426
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,960
on Microsoft 365, it's never going to be

427
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,880
on-prem side of the things.

428
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,880
So that's how the evolution evolution of the SDK has happened.

429
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,640
So earlier, it used to target on-prem plus cloud

430
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,880
and then it's now mostly cloud first,

431
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,960
it's always going to be cloud first, now, yeah.

432
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:42,800
- Hello.

433
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:48,400
- Let's jump a little bit more security topic.

434
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,200
How important is authentication design today

435
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,480
when building enterprise-ready automation with PNP?

436
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,200
- Can you come again?

437
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,400
- Yeah, no problem.

438
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,760
What did you think how important is authentication design today

439
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,400
when build enterprise-ready automation with PNP?

440
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,400
- Yeah, I think security is always the first

441
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,880
and the foremost thing at the top of the mind.

442
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,880
So in PNP, we support any enter ID that you have.

443
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,880
So as long as, see, as same goes with the PNP.NET as well,

444
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,800
as long as your app supports certain permissions,

445
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,840
PNP.NET will work.

446
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,360
So if there are certain scenarios where enter ID is there

447
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,720
and you are only allowed to specify certain permissions,

448
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,960
but PNP.NET supports a lot more things

449
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,240
and in those scenarios because your enter ID

450
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,720
doesn't have those permissions, the PNP will not work.

451
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,400
So security is at the top of the mind

452
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,400
and we always respect the enter ID permissions there.

453
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,800
So I think it's at the top of the mind

454
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,680
and whenever a developer has to develop on top of PNP.NET

455
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,160
or PNP PowerShell on all of that, they should always consider

456
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,600
the least permissions that they might need

457
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,520
to execute certain operations around PNP.NET

458
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,000
or PNP PowerShell or Crassey PI itself.

459
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,520
So yeah, I think.

460
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,080
- That's interesting.

461
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,080
I think a little bit about is there misconceptions

462
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,880
that you've often have about the PNP PowerShell?

463
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,640
What do you expect that?

464
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:34,920
- Yep.

465
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,240
Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that PNP PowerShell

466
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,200
is Microsoft developed.

467
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,120
It is not, it is completely open source.

468
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,040
It is not, it is completely open source.

469
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,040
It is maintained by a team of maintainers

470
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,680
who spend their time outside of work

471
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,360
to help maintain these libraries

472
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,720
and again, it is not supported by Microsoft.

473
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,800
So whenever you reason, so oftentimes we often get

474
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,640
some requests by someone that,

475
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,080
the Microsoft support is telling us to use request

476
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,920
or some issues around PNP PowerShell.

477
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,360
And oftentimes people do raise a request

478
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,040
with Microsoft support that, hey, this thing is not working

479
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,240
in PNP PowerShell and then Microsoft supports,

480
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,480
redirects it to us and then we have to look into that.

481
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,600
So that suffers a misconception

482
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,000
that PNP PowerShell is developed by Microsoft

483
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,080
and supported by Microsoft.

484
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,520
It is not, so it is all completely community driven

485
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,920
and helped and maintained by people in their suite.

486
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,000
So yeah.

487
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,800
Awesome.

488
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,680
We have this co-pilot,

489
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,720
topic everywhere actually.

490
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,000
How do you see PNP evolving along Microsoft co-pilot

491
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,960
and I, I, Drift Brook flows?

492
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,800
Yeah, interesting topic.

493
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,360
We are actively looking into how we can integrate PowerShell,

494
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,360
PNP PowerShell with the agent AI workflows.

495
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,920
So we're looking into developing an NCP server

496
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:04,760
around this.

497
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,920
So whenever you want to make certain requests

498
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,040
around PNP PowerShell,

499
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,240
this NCP server can kick in and help you out

500
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,120
in certain scenarios with certain problems.

501
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,000
We're also looking into working with how we can integrate

502
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,240
certain skills or develop some skills around certain topics

503
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,240
in PNP PowerShell.

504
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,200
So I think that's how we plan to evolve.

505
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,120
And of course, PNP PowerShell is based on .NET.

506
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:31,600
So current version is .NET 8.

507
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,720
And once it gets out of support we plan to improve

508
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,080
to .NET 10 as well.

509
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,200
So that should bring in all the latest and greatest

510
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,960
from the .NET itself,

511
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,640
.NET runtime itself into the PNP PowerShell.

512
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,880
And yeah, besides that PNP PowerShell works really well

513
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,000
from what I understand and what I've tested in Cloud Code

514
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,080
or GitHub co-pilot or Codex and all of those things

515
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,000
that they do understand PowerShell,

516
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,360
the PowerShell really well and they execute the commands

517
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,640
and the scripts and all that because they understand the code

518
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,320
and again, it's really helpful.

519
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,640
Yeah.

520
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,520
>> Yeah, you are currently deep dive into

521
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,040
a GenTik AI development experience,

522
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,160
especially because GitHub co-pilot,

523
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,680
what first pulled you into the space

524
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,080
or how did you major in this space?

525
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:35,480
>> Yeah, GitHub co-pilot when it first came as it was a bit awkward,

526
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,880
it was a bit okay-ish, but yeah, I think with time

527
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,000
when there were new models came in and they started to start

528
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,280
experimenting with them, building things

529
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,720
on using those agents and all of that.

530
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,120
Primarily it started, initially it was a very little use.

531
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,400
Then I think GPT 3.

532
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,600
Sorry, Sonnet 3.5, I think it was a 3.7,

533
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,840
which was a really good model and I think one of the first models

534
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,560
that kind of, it was like a bulb moment,

535
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,400
you have bulb glow moment that kicked in wow,

536
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,360
like this can be a start of really interesting things,

537
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,920
so that's how I got pulled into that and I think

538
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,720
once new models came in,

539
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,720
so one of my few-rit models nowadays is GPT 5.5,

540
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,400
so yeah, that model is really, really cool

541
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,600
and I really use it primarily all day,

542
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,400
every day for a lot of topics that we have in my current organization,

543
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,720
as well as with PMP.NET and PMP PowerShell as well, yeah.

544
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,600
>> Also, there was, I don't know,

545
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,240
there was this moment Microsoft by GitHub

546
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,320
and I think, oh, by the way, there's this stupid idea.

547
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,520
And yeah, but I love GitHub, okay.

548
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,160
But and I think the first co-pilot,

549
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,520
I element was to GitHub co-pilot.

550
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,600
But there are, I think, some misconceptions,

551
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,760
what people think about the GitHub co-pilot,

552
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,440
how will you explain the GitHub co-pilot?

553
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:21,480
>> Yeah, GitHub co-pilot is an e-sendic AI platform.

554
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Let's put it that way because it,

555
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,000
so if we, it has, it's like a collection of things that you use

556
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,520
with your development workflow.

557
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,960
So GitHub co-pilot has, you can use it inside VS code,

558
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,040
or VS code, it is, you can all get up co-pilot also like a platform

559
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,120
for different AI models, like from different AI providers,

560
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,920
such as OpenEI, Anthropic, Gemini,

561
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,360
and I think a few, a couple more as well.

562
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,360
So you can use it in any other tools,

563
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,560
such as even Open code as well.

564
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,120
Secondly, it is also there on the cloud.

565
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,320
So if you have a GitHub repository and a GitHub co-pilot subscription,

566
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,640
you can point that agent towards certain things.

567
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,560
For example, if someone raises an issue in a GitHub repository,

568
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,120
you can just assign that issue to GitHub co-pilot,

569
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,960
and it will basically work on that issue,

570
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,200
understand the issue,

571
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,240
three, three, three, all around that issue,

572
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560
and it's really interesting platform itself.

573
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:27,880
Same goes with pull request.

574
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,840
So if we have created a pull request,

575
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,040
it will review that pull request itself, you know?

576
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,880
So it really helps you in your own development workflow,

577
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,640
and it's like a complete platform of AI tools, yeah?

578
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,400
>> Well, that's really, really interesting.

579
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,440
So you say it's an agente AI,

580
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,800
but everybody talks about AI assistants.

581
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,600
So how do you explain to the people,

582
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,600
what's different between an AI assistant and an agente AI?

583
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,280
>> So yeah, yeah, assistant, think of it this way,

584
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,600
there is a task for you.

585
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,160
It is an agente AI and AI assistant,

586
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,160
think of it in those two terms.

587
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,160
If there is a task, you give that task to AI,

588
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,640
for example, GitHub co-pilot,

589
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,040
GitHub co-pilot will understand and make some changes,

590
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,160
you do it yourselves manually,

591
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,680
you create the pull requests,

592
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,840
and test it out all of that.

593
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,440
That's kind of AI assisted workflow,

594
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,840
whereas agente AI would be like the full end-to-end development

595
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,520
life cycle around the agente AI.

596
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,840
So you simply, there is some issue,

597
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,800
you assign that to AI.

598
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,680
AI will create a new branch,

599
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,680
you will work on that,

600
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,680
it will test it out,

601
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,080
you create a pull request,

602
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,200
and based on the permissions and all of that,

603
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,320
you assign it,

604
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400
you might even be able to work it and test it out.

605
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,040
So that's kind of like a different,

606
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,600
so agente AI would be like a full end-to-end AI-driven workflow,

607
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,800
and ag assistants would be like human in the loop,

608
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,960
and then, human assisting humans in development, so.

609
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,120
Yeah.

610
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,160
That's really interesting.

611
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,960
And I think a little bit about the future

612
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,280
from GitHub co-pilot,

613
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,520
what did you see,

614
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,480
what's happened in the next few months?

615
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,160
I know you are not allowed to

616
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,640
probably to tell all from the Microsoft event,

617
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,000
I think last month,

618
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,360
so yeah, but can you tell,

619
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,360
what you think,

620
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,840
not what you know is from Microsoft.

621
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,680
(laughs)

622
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Yeah, I think when you look at the industry trends as well,

623
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,080
GitHub co-pilot is changing a lot,

624
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,720
it's going to,

625
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:54,520
yeah, it's from what I understand would be that,

626
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,480
it's going to become a bit more expensive,

627
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,200
or from what,

628
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,400
think of this with the end of the subsidy regime

629
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,400
that we used to,

630
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,560
we're kind of used to it, right?

631
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,800
So they did provide a blog post,

632
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,640
they are moving away from premium requests

633
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,000
to use it based kind of things.

634
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,640
So yeah, it's going to be an interesting shift,

635
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,720
because now we are all addicted to

636
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,160
eSynthic AI and AI-driven workflows,

637
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,760
and then suddenly it becomes a lot more expensive.

638
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,920
So now you do really think around,

639
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,160
you know, where you want to point out

640
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,760
the AI to certain things.

641
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,760
So yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting future,

642
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,840
because yeah, yeah.

643
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,080
- Was there something,

644
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,080
a mind shifting between, I say, building traditional apps

645
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,760
and now building AI power,

646
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,680
AI-driven applications,

647
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,400
what they're a change,

648
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,560
or from your opinion,

649
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,800
have you, or it's nearly the same, but it's faster?

650
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,360
- More, I mean, I would suggest,

651
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,920
I would think in this terms that it is a lot faster,

652
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,400
and it is also like fail fast, you know?

653
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,240
So the loop is a lot shorter for certain things.

654
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:16,680
So if you want to develop an app,

655
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,120
you just point it to AI,

656
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,160
it will develop it,

657
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,040
you are able to see it near real time in a few minutes,

658
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,640
and then you are able to, you know,

659
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,200
get it out or ship it out,

660
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,080
and if you think it is good enough.

661
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,840
So it allows a lot more flexibility,

662
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,920
and shorter is the time,

663
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,640
lines for developing of certain things, yeah.

664
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,240
- Awesome.

665
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,600
Yeah, I find it so interesting,

666
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,680
there's happening so much from local to no code,

667
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,120
or my code, I don't know,

668
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,440
there are so many buzzword out there,

669
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,560
sometimes I'll link a little bit,

670
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120
oh, what's happened in this world?

671
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:01,280
But when you can give a tip to our,

672
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:06,200
you and your developer who start his career

673
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,040
with GitHub, GitHub, co-pilot,

674
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,600
what will you,

675
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,240
what tip can you give or what advice?

676
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:20,920
- Understand the tool and some models well, how they work.

677
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,840
It's, say it's going to be like how you enter an industry,

678
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,160
you know, like you first learn how coding is,

679
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,840
what coding is, you sort of learn those things,

680
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,280
and then use that evolving and doing something

681
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,840
like an iterative feedback loop.

682
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,680
So learn the tools, for example,

683
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,440
GitHub, co-pilot, or Cloud code, or codex,

684
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,560
or learn how they work, secondly use certain things.

685
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,440
For example, MCPs, however, or skills,

686
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,080
and whatnot, that is available,

687
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,040
that you can use alongside those tools.

688
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,480
So that's how you can,

689
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,080
equals is a developer, and of course,

690
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,480
something that will never change is the fundamentals

691
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,240
of certain language, if you are a tenant developer,

692
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:07,760
well, it will always be better for,

693
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,720
I mean, if you know the language,

694
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,120
because you will be able to read code and understand code.

695
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,240
So as a human, it is always important

696
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,320
to understand code in my opinion,

697
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,320
that so that you are responsible for the code

698
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,720
that you are shipping,

699
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,760
and you need to understand the code that you are shipping, right?

700
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,280
So I mean, here will help you for sure,

701
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,920
like 98% times it will help you,

702
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,960
but that 2% times, yeah, if you don't know the code,

703
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,280
good luck with that, so.

704
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,080
- Yeah, I'm the print hello world guy.

705
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,680
(laughing)

706
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,600
You have, from your company side,

707
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,240
you have a strong knowledge about governance,

708
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,960
especially in teams and SharePoint,

709
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,960
but how has governance changed in the code pilot area

710
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,800
from your perspective, and how we can,

711
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,880
I don't know, feel more safe, or how can company

712
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,800
feel more safe because there's a lot of panic

713
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,560
and a lot of other people say they can nothing,

714
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,520
but what did you think?

715
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,160
- Yeah, I think governance is,

716
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,360
and we've always been interesting and topic,

717
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,000
so mainly like how developers in the organization

718
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,000
are using AI, the data in Greece, as well as the,

719
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,840
I mean, how the data comes in, data comes out,

720
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,200
maybe do some auditing, do some logging around,

721
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,440
those side of the things, how developers are building

722
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,960
those tools inside your organization, what data,

723
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,560
I mean, what connections they are doing,

724
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,200
for example, in low-code scenarios,

725
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,280
you build some things, and that connects outside your,

726
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,680
and the 365 ecosystem, maybe ensure that it is audited

727
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,680
and loved and tracked somewhere, so same goes with AI,

728
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,320
you need to ensure that your tools are compliant

729
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,560
with your organization's policies,

730
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,840
and then ensure that you also have the tools to track

731
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,680
how these things are working, so that's how I see that, yeah.

732
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,440
- Yeah, I am a really lazy guy,

733
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,840
and I often use cloud-coder or complexity or something,

734
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,880
and for simple stuff like, I don't know,

735
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,720
there is a new, I don't know, for the podcast,

736
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,720
there was, well, now you need also a 60 to 9 thumbnail

737
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,960
to do square, there thing, and as they were,

738
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,480
I'm too bored about it, they say,

739
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,600
I, let us develop the net,

740
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,920
and for all these things, we are in the niche,

741
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,480
where everybody should build,

742
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,600
like me, an app for everything,

743
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,600
or is there also a space for enterprise solutions?

744
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:05,120
- Yes, enterprise solutions will always be there,

745
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,080
I think, enterprises need certain things,

746
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,280
for example, reliability, availability,

747
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,920
observability of some things,

748
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,120
so I think that's where enterprise solutions will evolve,

749
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:21,120
you know, maybe did I get it right,

750
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,080
with you, yeah?

751
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,600
- Yeah, I'm for all your side,

752
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,960
it's a totally more fun question,

753
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,680
but from your personal view,

754
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,960
how has I changed your way for personality code,

755
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,560
disease, value, or prototype solutions?

756
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,560
- Yep, closing the loop faster,

757
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,000
fixing the issues faster,

758
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
making more errors, understanding those errors as well,

759
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,560
better, I think oftentimes,

760
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,640
there are some things I used to do earlier,

761
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:55,960
for example, stack over a flu,

762
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,640
and stack exchange and all of them.

763
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,760
Now we have a living assistant inside our own

764
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,480
development environment, so that has helped quite a lot,

765
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,480
oftentimes, and I'm slightly a bit on the edge,

766
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,680
because oftentimes, when I was a junior developer,

767
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,360
I would often reach out to my seniors

768
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,840
or someone in the team like,

769
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,080
"Hey, help me out with this sort of things."

770
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,160
Nowadays, that has shifted because everyone has AI,

771
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,800
so people usually first go there,

772
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,040
and then probably if they need someone,

773
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,640
then they reach out to a senior developer,

774
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,560
and that kind of thing,

775
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,720
so that kind of evolution seems to have happened in my opinion,

776
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:43,120
yeah?

777
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:48,120
I think we are, all the things are so rapidly changed,

778
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,440
and I think I don't know,

779
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,480
every, I feel nearly every hour,

780
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,040
when you look on LinkedIn,

781
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,200
Microsoft has something you like,

782
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,680
co-pilot notebooks,

783
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:08,640
co-pilot skills, worker, worker IQ, and so on.

784
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,760
I'm a little bit overwhelmed,

785
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:14,480
sometimes, and I think,

786
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,600
what could be interesting,

787
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:16,840
what's not so interesting for me,

788
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,160
but how do you continue learning,

789
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:25,000
and not feel overwhelmed in such rapid-changling ecosystem?

790
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:31,600
Yeah, well, yeah, that's a fair ask.

791
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,720
I mean, it's also the thing,

792
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:35,920
sign of things to happen,

793
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,920
rate, duplication of whatever your life is,

794
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,960
but, yeah, I think it kind of depends on the individual as well,

795
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,920
it's like, example, if you're interested in certain topics,

796
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,920
maybe just keep a track of the people who are super involved

797
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,200
in those topics, follow them, maybe,

798
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,720
and see certain blogs around those areas,

799
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:58,680
follow Microsoft topics around that area,

800
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,560
and I think maybe it's co-pink your attention to certain things,

801
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000
should help, because a lot of things happen,

802
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,160
is a lot of areas,

803
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,560
and not everything you need to know.

804
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,000
For example, I don't need to know co-pilot,

805
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,120
no book, I'm happy with knowing co-pilot,

806
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,080
get-up co-pilot.

807
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,240
So, I mean, thinking those terms, right?

808
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,360
It's all, it's going to be an overview of the future, for sure.

809
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,840
So, it's really important where we focus,

810
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,240
for attention on, yeah.

811
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:35,880
Okay, then we have the rapid-fire-out.

812
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:39,400
So, I ask a question that you give us,

813
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:44,480
short, as what do you think about your favorite developer tool right now?

814
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,200
Cloud-cour.

815
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,280
A one-microsoft technology, more developer-should-pay attention to it.

816
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,120
Co-pilot, see your life.

817
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,440
Teps or space?

818
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,800
Times.

819
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,760
Most other right, it's skill for developers.

820
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,480
Debugging.

821
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,800
One-air prediction, you stay strongly believe in.

822
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,920
Yeah, you will eat software.

823
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,680
Your favorite finished dish.

824
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,200
Oh, wow.

825
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,960
You know, a hard chocolate.

826
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,480
So, be-

827
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,320
Coffee-t-you.

828
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,440
Coffee-t-you are energy jinx during the coding sessions.

829
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,440
Water.

830
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:33,440
Oh, right.

831
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,320
Oh, yeah, it's an option I would often.

832
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,520
Sorry.

833
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:46,360
Best way to learn, documentation, videos or building projects.

834
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,400
Documentation.

835
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,960
A dream project you love to build someday.

836
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:58,400
Uh, video, something.

837
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,640
Video, translator, kind of thing, yeah.

838
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,520
And, Rick and people follow your work and connect with your online.

839
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,480
Um, LinkedIn, Twitter, X, yeah.

840
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:17,080
So, all the links and the person profile is in the show now.

841
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,600
So, a lot of people can check it out.

842
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:27,640
So, then my last question is, the same question I have asked, what is the one thing the

843
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:33,120
developers show take from this session today?

844
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:40,040
Learn AI, uh, AI, AI, AI assisted development, uh, be proficient.

845
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,120
That's the future.

846
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,720
Uh, language fundamentals are important.

847
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:51,000
So, pick a particular language set, for example, node.js stack or C#, ASP.NET stack or something,

848
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:56,920
be proficient in one of them and use AI to the fullest, yeah.

849
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,600
Yeah, thank you.

850
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,400
So, you know, this was a great session.

851
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,240
Uh, thank you so much.

852
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,760
It was really interesting, especially in the PMP world.

853
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,280
So, thank you so much.

854
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,280
Bye.

855
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,280
Thanks, we'll go thank you for having me.

856
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:11,720
Bye.

857
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:21,720
.