Enterprise AI Experiences in Power Apps with Sara Lagerquist [MVP]

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>> Yeah, welcome back to the MC65 podcast.

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Today, we are driving into one of

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the hottest topic in the Microsoft ecosystem,

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how AI fundamentally changed the way we build business applications,

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while everyone is talking about co-pilot and generative AI.

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Very few people are discussing what happens after the demos.

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How do we build a iPod business application that are main and

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table, governance, sales, and actually resolve real business problems?

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Our guest today is someone who works exactly on this space.

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Sarah Lagerkwist, she is a Microsoft MVP,

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Applications Architect, International Speaker and

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Found of the Power Platform Community Sweden.

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She specialized in Power Apps, Model Driven Apps,

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Custom Pages, PCFs, and extended generative pages

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beyond the out-of-the-box experience to create

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experience-rate business solutions.

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Today, we are all exploring AI,

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Architect, governance, Power Platform, and best practice,

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Model Driven Apps, the future of enterprise, and so on,

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and much, much more.

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Welcome Sarah to the show.

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>> Thank you. Wow, there was a long entry

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within a lot of stuff that I do, but yes, thank you.

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>> Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and

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your journey into the Microsoft ecosystem?

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>> It's laggy.

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>> Absolutely, absolutely.

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So I don't have an IT background or

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having really studied after the basic school that you have to go through.

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I was one of those indecisive persons here and

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every decided where, what, a way to go.

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So I ended up at a company as an administrator that got CRM 2011 implemented.

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>> Okay.

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>> That I was just like, huh, this system I kind of get.

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This is like, it came natural to me.

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I understood it.

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It was logical.

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It made sense.

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I started to do my own workflows and

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I found configurations settings and

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productions that I shouldn't have found that I did.

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And then I looked into like going to school and study something in that direction.

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But then they consultancy firm who implemented this said like,

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now I just come and work for us instead.

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And that's how it's been now for 12 years.

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Different firm.

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I made a different company now, but yeah,

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a consultant for 12 years now pretty much working with a power platform mainly.

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>> And why is power platform became your primary focus?

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>> Because I think it opens up for supporting more processes than just what the dynamics apps do.

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The dynamics apps already have a thought of how the processes should work and

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what workflows you should get.

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I like the challenge of someone saying, this is how our business works.

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And I can help design, I can redesign the process.

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I can actually adapt an app or an agent or

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something completely based on that.

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The data can be different, the flow can be different, everything.

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So I feel like I have a better toolbox and I'm not so restricted.

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I like to be free.

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I'm free when I work with a power platform.

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>> Yeah.

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And you are, or we have, I think it's three, but

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you are specialized in model driven apps instead of Canvas apps.

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Why did you prefer model driven apps?

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And I think that's also some new.

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Generative apps, I don't know, I have forgotten the name.

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>> Yeah.

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Well, I don't, I wouldn't say like I prefer it.

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I come from that, since I've been a dynamic girl,

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of course, like model driven apps are closer to where I started.

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But it's just that in most cases where I find a process,

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I see that you get so much for free, like when you create a model driven app.

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It's such quick development and you get so much functionality that supports.

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And it's like recognizable for someone who's working with Excel or

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even outlook or any of the other Microsoft products.

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So, and then Canvas apps absolutely have their use cases.

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So, or maybe not anymore, we'll see.

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But they had and so there's absolutely use cases where I've used Canvas apps too.

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I just feel that in very many cases, the overhead becomes too much in those cases,

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where you need like a standalone Canvas app.

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Because it's still quite gruesome to configure and do complex stuff.

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A model driven app, you can have a generative page in now,

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which is like my favorite thing ever.

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This is, I just came home yesterday evening from European Power Platform Conference,

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where I had two talks and both of them had generative pages in them.

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Because I see this feature like solving so many problems.

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It's really a chameleon.

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It can, it can adapt to so many different use cases.

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So, you have the base and the quick development of a model driven app

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and all the benefits and all the navigation and search functionality

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and all of that that comes out of the box with a model driven app.

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And then you can, when you need to, extend it with a generative page

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and the UI could be whatever you want.

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It could be a multi-table wizard or it could be some type of visual graphic,

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maybe a board, a can-band board, a scheduling board,

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a calendar of some sort to display data.

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Anyway, you need to display data in a different way than a model driven app.

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Because we all know also model driven apps have a couple of downsides.

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And it's a bit clicking in some cases when you need to create a lot of records.

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So that is also a great use case for a gen page where you,

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you have like a process where you need to create a lot of records

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for example, for many, too many relationships.

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Then it would be like, I think five or six clicks for each record.

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And here you can just do it in one go with a few clicks.

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You just change the UI with a gen page.

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So the combination of all the benefits of model driven apps

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plus a gen page is like the future of apps.

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No, I don't know.

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Yeah, I'm really excited about it.

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When we start with an or with opening power apps,

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is there any requirements or to do it?

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I have to do before I show start the app studio.

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With with gen pages, particularly you mean?

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Yeah.

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So you need to you need to have a model driven app.

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You configure it from from the app builder like that the model driven app designer

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probably is called.

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I don't know.

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They change the name so many times.

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But then there's two ways of creating these.

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And they are two very different experiences.

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So you have the UI in the make report all that creates like

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they give you a prompt box where you can describe the page that you want.

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The UI, you want the problem you want to solve.

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You add your data sources.

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Maybe you even add an image of how you want this to look what you want this to look like.

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And then it generates a page for you.

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The thing here is that that way of doing it in the UI is only GA in the United States,

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UK, Australia, maybe some more English speaking language country.

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But mostly those those countries and it's in preview.

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For example, Sweden and Finland and Germany and all of those other countries.

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It only gives you the option to use model GPT 4.1.

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And that is a retired model from OpenAI.

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And as you can hear by the number of it, it's not the newest model.

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So I would say that reflects a lot in the results too.

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And what happens when you do this is also you get a little chat box and an agent you can

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continue to prompt and develop your page in.

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And that every time you add a prompt or like add it to change something, it regenerates the

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whole page.

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So I don't say it's so efficient.

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So there's and then there's some quirky bugs in the UI too.

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So like I would say the UI way of doing it, the maker portal way of doing it, it's mostly

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for trying it out and maybe at most doing a proof of concept maybe.

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But if you're if you really want to do it the solid way, I would go into any coding tool

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of your choice.

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I use visual studio VS code and GitHub code pilot in combination.

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And to emphasize here, I'm not a developer.

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I do not have a developer background.

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This is not necessary for using these tools.

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But what you get here is that Microsoft has released a skill, a plugin base that you

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can install in VS code that a skill for gen pages.

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And it's really well written and that means you can pretty much go and prompt your page

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where you actually have the choice to choose your AI model.

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The more complex page the higher the model is required.

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So you can go for for cloud any type you want depending on your want to do results.

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The skill also include like a planning stage which I kind of like.

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So you talk with your agent in VS code and like discuss the layout and it creates a TML

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wire frames which you can click through and like yes, okay, now we're on onto something.

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This is what I want or you can before it starts building.

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So that will also be before except for it being more efficient.

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It will also save you a credit since most coding tools now or at least get up code pilot

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is a credit based.

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So so I and if you go to the UI and you do the prompt in the make report for gen page,

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even the UI has this little box at the top level like do you want to enable more AI models?

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The way to go is with via coding tools.

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So they're like really pushing in that direction, but I would say like the biggest benefit here

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is that SGA world wide if you go with if you make it through the coding tools.

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So I can implement one and it would be supported and all of that that way.

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And I would get a so much better result than doing it in the make report.

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And before I start how how important is to think about I don't know the business value,

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the strategy, what tips can you give here and before it's come to the first prompt?

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>> So first of all, you have to identify that a model driven app,

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the UI of a model driven app is not enough for your use case, right?

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But you need to identify that it also belongs in this app somehow.

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Like you still want to work with the same data that is in the rest of the app.

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It has to be the same target audience like user group that is actually using this data

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to be able to or to take the decision to make a gen page out of it.

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So absolutely, you need to look at the business side and see if there's a proper use case

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in the app that you're talking about.

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But we are also shifting because like return of investment now when you build it this way,

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because it's also like a million times quicker to build a very complex gen page

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compared to like a custom page, which is still low code,

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but like it could take a lot of time to create a custom page with power effects

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and all the configuration that you have to do for it to work.

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And here is like a few prompts here and there and UK work with other stuff

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in between while the agent is working too.

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So I would say like before maybe we made decisions not to implement a custom page

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or a complex UI because like, oh, it would be too much to maintain

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and to extend and continue to develop.

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And we would give the users unrealistic expectations of the UI

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and other parts and stuff like that.

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I don't think we have to be equally afraid of that now as we maybe were before.

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So like maybe before I was an architect that pulled the brakes a bit more than I will do now.

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I would say no a lot more before than I will now because of the speed of development of this feature.

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And when what makes a good prompt or what separates a good prompt for a bad prompt

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to build a page especially when we think about building an app prompt?

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That's a very good question and it kind of depends on where you start.

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So and what instructions your agent have that you are using.

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In the UI I would use as little description for the interface

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like how you wanted to look as possible.

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I rather just attach an image to make it more similar.

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But to be honest my biggest tip here is to go to any of your favorite tool.

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If it's co-pilot chat or if it's chat GPT or whatever, describe shortly what you want to create

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and have them help you refine the prompt.

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Because they are so much better at structuring a prompt and making more sensible.

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And also efficient if you say that the bigger the prompt the more tokens it will use.

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It will also be more efficient especially for someone who's not have English as a native language.

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Maybe I have a tendency to use a bit more words than a native English speaker and then your AI.

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How can help you make it less?

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So what would you say?

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What do you think one big prompt is better or an iterative prompting process?

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So the context window if it's a small prompt to start with,

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the context window will be wider.

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So as many details as you have I would try to add to my first prompt.

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But if you go with the code in two way, which is my recommended way,

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like since it doesn't start building until you tell it to start building,

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I wouldn't be too afraid of having like a conversation afterwards because there's so much things that you realize when you get there,

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the wireframes like, oh, that that would not at all what I meant or what what I want or oh,

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I forgot that I should be able to love a lot in this page too.

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So so yeah, I think you could go either way,

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but start with as many details as you have so you don't have to jump through those hoops afterwards.

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And when I do this app, I think a little bit about yeah, main intents, how can other understand the app?

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I don't know someone we try out or leave the company from other reason.

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How can we have there on this IE generated pages?

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How we have the overview?

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What's happened in the app?

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And what's the question, Sir?

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Yeah, I think a little bit like governance or development question,

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but it's someone have make a lot of citizens develop, no, everyone can make apps,

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but someone leaves the company or or it's sick for a while and I have to change something on the app.

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How can I look into the app and get to understand how an AI generated app works?

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What's to your chips here?

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Well, hopefully the AI has helped you design it, so it's kind of self explanatory.

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But you can also add so it again depends on what type of agent you're using in your coding tool.

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So I have a consultant agent that helps me discuss a lot about the process itself first

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and it asks me questions about the process, it finds gap in the process,

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and it asks like, oh, so how do you want to do with this part?

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And I was like, wow, that's out of school or all of that.

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I can't, since I have all this conversation and I have therefore a plan and a process a plan to out,

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I have half of the documentation already done with that agent.

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It already made me mermaid diagram, it already made me the wire frames and all of those parts.

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It even makes me a plan for implementation before design.

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So all of that you can give to a new developer, but you can also ask it to spit out like user manual based on this.

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And you can add a playwright, MCP to grab a bunch of screenshots from the, from the, the wallpaper to yourself.

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And then it will add that to you, whatever instruction manual you want.

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Yeah, and in the last time, I think that's also upcoming topic.

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It's especially even we call about a I generated apps that's data was what role do data was play?

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You mean data sources or what?

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Like the quality of data.

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The data verse is all talk about it, especially when it's come to ads.

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Why is this such an important topic actually?

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So sorry, I just got lost track here, but one thing that is coming by the way that I saw for Gen pages that I saw this week is that right now Gen pages only works with the data verse.

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So you can only extend a model driven app.

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The good thing about custom pages is that you can actually infuse other data sources in a custom page.

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So you can have other data sources than data verse in your model, or an app big advantage.

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Leon announced at if you receive that it's coming connectors are coming for for generative pages too.

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So even in July, so it's July now, right?

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So very soon, hopefully, we will see the possibility to have different data sources in in Gen pages too.

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And I lost your question.

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I got sidetracked.

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It's really interesting.

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I love this that's better than I ask.

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So that's actually the you only have data worse on and your internal, I don't know.

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Microsoft fabric or something as source and now in the future, we get really extendable sources from from from outside or.

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Exactly. So I don't know if it's so I just saw this like on an overview slide. So I don't know if it's through connectors is just a few connectors.

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I don't know what data sources yet, but I just saw it.

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It's coming. So Microsoft has definitely realized that.

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You need a way to be able to extend your model to an app with more data than just data verse in this is the way way to do it going forward I would get.

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So I'm really excited about that.

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Another thing that they announced at this conference is that.

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That's been a huge ask for everyone working with custom pages for for ages is to be able to embedded on a form or a tab like you can do with a camera's app.

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Because that way with cameras up is so clunky and the response of this is quite horrible and.

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Unfortunately had been had forced to do that a couple times and it's very messy. But that is coming with generative pages also very soon that you are supposed to be able to enable it in a tab or even section it said.

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I'm really intrigued how this will work like not only responsive and that's wise, but also performance wise because right now model driven forms are quite quick to load.

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And how will having a gen page embedded effect that and what does this mean compared to PCF that are also UI that you can embed like on a form a custom control that will change the UI will this complete the replace the need for PC apps or.

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So I don't know where we going but I'm very excited to see where where this takes us.

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Yeah, I think the PCF is the power apps component component framework. I think this is really cool stuff because you have all these ready made.

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Yeah, I don't know things like the I don't know I love the barcode scanner, but I hope they're there comes more in future.

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What make make did it for you make sense build forms instead of apps watch or I every use apps instant or forms.

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I mean, I meant like the the forms of a record in a model driven app. That is what you can now or hopefully soon embed a gen page on so it would pretty much be as a PCF partly where you can extend the UI with both different data sources maybe like dress up a record with information from.

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From your ERP or something or you could have like a mini wizard embedded on the form I don't know yet I haven't seen it but I'm I'm excited.

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Yeah, okay, I really yeah, I don't know it's it's really new or the PC PCF or is it.

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So it's I would say like it's almost a replacement of PCF it's like the it's gen pages embedded in in a model driven form that's that's the key like here but that is coming in July and I haven't seen it yet so I don't know how it's going to work.

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And then let's think about one one enterprise topic is also a sink governance. Why think you many organizations try all this power platform governance.

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Because with the the rapid development right now how quickly you can create components in the power platform. The more important it becomes to govern everything that is created right when you do.

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We need structure to make sure that our agents is behaving as we want them to behave that our apps are performing in our extendable and have an owner and all of that I see like we will have before we were maybe more limited about how many apps can we create in a year.

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That will change now to how like how many apps can we adopt because the creation part will will not be the hardest part anymore it will be more about adoption continuous development governance make sure that it keeps in their guardrails and with the constraints that is necessary and I think we need to talk more about the processes itself and why why.

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Why we need an app or why we need an agent or or if we should rethink the whole process and need are we just I think it was don as our car I heard at a key note that we're comparing AI to to cars and horses like we don't use AI to to make faster horses.

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We have to make the horses that are our transport for now faster we have to rethink transport overall and therefore cars was created and we are in the same with with like business support business systems that we maybe need to any I hear that we need to recreate the thinking of how we solve problems can complete.

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We don't want to solve the same problems just with AI if that makes sense.

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I don't think I'm a good storyteller as Donna she made a lot more sense when she said.

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But a lot of companies are think years before we have these data driven companies AI driven companies but now I think one of the other top of the keys is a city developer company how should come and you think about citizen development when they start with it what tips can you give here.

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That's a good question I think we were in the same challenges as we've been ever since low code entered our our sphere that the people are going to want to build stuff themselves and and really maybe they are the best at doing it because they know the process really well itself.

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So I think it about enabling those people who want to do it themselves and teaching them skills that they need to be aware of like security issues data access all of the things you need to consider when you you design an app or an agent that we should give them the tools and information to help them with that.

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That's that's pretty much it.

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Okay, I think it's a good tip.

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Also, what can you say a lot of people I think there are yeah, but hearing a little bit about starting develop their own own app which can you give people who will start or think about to start with citizen development.

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I would say I would say just just make sure to design the process first don't like previously 10 14 years ago when I started out we were kind of limited to pushing our processes into existing systems because it would

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be too expensive to change parts of the systems some some things we just had to like oh this is how it is this is we have to buy into this.

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All of that now especially with AI we really can forget about the tool that will get us there we can really really talk about the process itself first hand.

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So I would really like spend time in updating your skill on designing the process and then like the making part girl that that's that's easy that will be that will be the smallest.

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Yeah, I think one one yeah controversial topics are also in companies that's the sketch is the platform power platform center of excellence what advice can you give here or what's your experience with center of excellence well I think they I think I don't know the proper term but I think they retired it a couple of months ago or a month ago or something that they will not continue to develop that because the app.

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Because the admin portal is the getting better better and have most of the features that they create the the kit center excellence kit have because it was just always a starting point right and now the the admin portal has most of that information and gives you the governance that you need and if not you can build you can maybe build some of it yourself.

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So I wouldn't implement that now if you have implemented already continue to use it for as long as it makes sense but look at the features in the admin portal to see how redundant it is because it was a hassle to maintain a center excellence kit.

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Yeah, we have now so much new I say words or or a bus but a little bit yeah losing sometimes the overview we have now generative ages custom pages PCS what what or how did you have can have the overview of all what they're there are coming you how did you handle this.

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So it's I think it's an impossible task and I don't think I have the the overview or the whole picture I'm I'm trying to to stay stay current just as everyone else and try try to understand I go to conferences I read blogs I look at linkedin I look at like the release notes and and all of that I'm still probably missing a lot of stuff.

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So I would say like I use the community a lot and I use my colleagues a lot because and when everything is happening so fast in our platform no one can know at all that means that I always want to make sure to check my solution that I'm designing with one or two or even three other people to make sure that there's no other way no better way to do it.

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Yeah, like cross check and report everything because it's impossible to know everything yourself.

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Did you see a big picture Michael's have had with with with power pages overall.

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Power pages I know nothing about not one thing or.

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When we are yeah I think when we build these these all all these is nice stuff and you have say a community and so on and you are also a founder of the power platform community Sweden can you tell a little bit about this initiative.

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Yeah it's I started before the pandemic I thought like because I heard my my international friends I was going to international conference speaking back then too and they have like user groups.

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The like local communities where they had a full day of learning or or something so I find a user group in Sweden and I went to that a couple of times and spoke at that but then I was like it's so you sure focused in Sweden in in UK it seems to be a lot of like makers and users combined but in Sweden it was like so you sure focused only like the customer side of it and I was like but what.

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There need to be like a forum for for everyone who's building everyone who's maker if you're a consultant or you work for an end customer it doesn't matter but like where are the maker group so I founded that myself so I reach out to old colleagues and people only then it was like i'm trying to do this is this even of interest and I started organizing these events so it's like.

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I want to make it very easy to stop by and low low bar for people to come so we do like after work style so after work is done from 5 30 to 8 30 we have two sessions we are at different partners every time that like vice peach says and beers so we watch a couple sessions.

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Someone is presenting something fun and learning we geek out about power platform we have a lot of there you get to know people and it work with the people locally and that really took off so so well so now in my Stockholm events I I always have a wait list like always is always fully booked and I have a long queue of people that wants to come in but can't get a seat.

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Maybe I should try to have more events but I don't really have time for.

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But then we also expanded to to Malamana and Gothenburg which is to the two other main cities in Sweden so I have like a group of people who started organizing the south south branch i'm only supporting with like the website and some tips on speakers.

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Mostly they're running by themselves and Gothenburg has just started off trying to support them too as much as I can but like it's franchise here okay so they're they're kind of on their own and I'm just helping a bit but it's really fun to see that it's growing and it's the people really want to go and like the concept of it.

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And yeah you are also speaker what did you learn from yeah from speaking on on other events and also getting to other events.

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I I love that I get to really deep dive in the subject before I go on stage like I really need to figure out all the little details about the feature that I'm talking about so it's like an opportunity for myself to force me to.

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Really go deep in something that that is one of the main advantages of going on stage and then it's also extremely fun and to talk about something that you're nerdy about and like you.

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Yeah.

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Yeah if you say a feature in the deep dive is there one feature you say oh the visits yeah it's it's underrated actually.

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Underrated feature well I would almost say that Jen Peeces Arsenal underrated I don't I I talk very loudly about it but I don't think it's talked about enough.

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I yeah no I think that is my biggest one that I would push even more if I could.

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And how what tips can you give like I think someone is new and tech and also likes to become an architect like you how actual they start or he.

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I think that is the biggest question of our of our occupation right now like how do we get people that starting out on this train because.

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AI is actually replacing some of the junior tasks that like new people in tech was doing.

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So again I would it seems like a red thread through this conversation but I would would ask them to focus on the the business side of it like the designing processes sketching out flows process flows and diagrams and all of those skills.

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Because those are the ones that's going to matter in the future not learning where to click in the in the make report all.

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And what will you do when Microsoft came and say hey Sarah you get all the resources all the money the needs you can develop one feature which which will you develop.

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Oh I am no clue I am too realistic I have no clue what I would I would do.

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Okay you think it's not realistic that such an ideal you're actually goes tomorrow breaks.

335
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Yeah so I have in every podcast I have a quick fire out short questions I say then you give a short short answer so let's start simple coffee.

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I did you think or tea through the event of it coffee early bird or night all both.

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You know I'm favorite Microsoft build announcement.

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Wow I know clue.

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Yeah what is your favorite the conference.

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No I can't say I go to so many and I would piss people off no matter my answer so I can't say.

341
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But is there any book you can yeah you say everyone should read.

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Hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy is my favorite book.

343
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That is really cool.

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What was your biggest lesson from your career.

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Don't be afraid to stand out.

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And one prediction for Microsoft AI in the next years.

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No okay so I probably be wrong so no.

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So one when we think a little bit about the near feature food future we have that's throughout today.

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And what is some and I don't know if you're out but you can say with all expose the name what's the next project you will start.

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I'm not so focused on projects right now because I'm going on Nordic vacation and Nordic vacation is like you know several weeks.

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So my focus right now is to finish up everything that I'm doing like all the conversation I have with Microsoft PMs about features and all my customers and all of that.

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I'm just trying to wrap stuff up so I can delete teams and outlook for five weeks and just be in my summer cottage and read books.

353
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Oh yeah it was was really great.

354
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And we have all we have so many topics.

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And then yeah my last question is what should people take away from this podcast when they remain meaning only one one thing.

356
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So the same pages are awesome and you should try it out but only the code way.

357
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Yeah okay so yeah Sarah thank you for being here this was yeah in info inside for conversation and I have run the Nordic holidays along the then the drones.

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I'll explore everything from enterprise architecture governance model there's an apps generatives apps AI cost of pages PCS and what's really take to build the stable business solutions in the power platform.

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So thank you for much for sharing your experience and your practical insights with us.

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And yeah I hope we see us also on conference also on and yeah have a nice day. Thank you so much.

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Thank you for having me.

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Bye.

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Bye.