Too Many Places for Notes: Navigating OneNote, Loop, Copilot, and More with Karinne Diamond Bessette [MVP]

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Welcome to another edition of the MC65FM podcast. Today we are joined by a

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Catherine Diamond Beset, a Microsoft MVP educator, community leader and the

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technical storyteller at VMs office at the CTO. We are diving into one of the

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biggest modern-place challenges with one-node group, co-pilot notebooks, teams at

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more virtual, your information, actual list and how do we avoid digital chaos.

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So Catherine, welcome to the show for people who not made, yeah, you can you

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introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your role at the job and how

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you work with the community. Absolutely, there's a lot of questions right there.

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So to start off with, I work for VM software. I am in a role under the

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strategy side in the company. They call it a technologist, but I feel like no one

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knows that the technologist is. So I've given myself the title technical storyteller

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and that seems to resonate and hit home a little better. As for community, I am

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in so many communities across the board because I feel like I just thrive there.

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I make connections. I love being around the people and then learning everything

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that comes from it. So yes, I am a Microsoft MVP. I sit in the M365 apps group. I

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also sit on the board for the woman in M365 group. I have a learning club there.

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I'll give a little plug. I just finished updating the website. I'm sure they'll

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be links after this. I'll give you my link tree that has on it for any women that

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want to join in the conversation. And we have an all-inclusive group for anyone

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that wants to come help support the community that way. And I'm spacing on, what was the

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last question you asked me? Yeah, what the community, what's your work look like in the community?

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Sure. My work in the community is a lot in the way of presentations and then just

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kind of like supporting through sharing information. I like trying to get my

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company involved. So we run our own internal community programs. We really breathe the

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life of what it means to be an evangelist side of that community and get inside access

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to all the things that you can and can't talk about. I think you wear a lot of hats, technical

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storytelling, educational community, organized as an organization, MVP, which of those roles

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most influenced how you approach Microsoft 365 technologies today?

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Well, I'm about there you a crew ball here. I don't think any of them completely define

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how I approach everything because my complete definition is making friends and connections.

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So it's a community reach back. I started off at my current company and my previous, what

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I call my previous life in support and operation roles. I didn't realize my most important

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skill there was going to be translating between like that technical jargon and then being

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able to talk to grandma trying to figure out how to pull the right cord on a device or

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working with point of sale as general managers and those skills learning how to educate

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and translate what I'm saying and giving it out to a non technical and technical person

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at the same time is how I can live my entire life. Let's jump into the many places problem.

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So we have or yeah, we have one node, two teams chat, co-pilot, planner, I don't know, white

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board, outlook and all I can make notes for me it's a little bit overwhelming when you

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just watch and is there any animal plan for Microsoft how to use it right?

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So plans for Microsoft and how to use it right. I don't know if we'll get that. I've been in a

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Microsoft community for some time and they kind of give you the choice that you can find the right

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tool that fits your avenue but then it ends up being like this entire data sprawl. So what I've

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been trying to do is figure out, okay, we do have one node and I moved from having text documents

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on my desktop to consolidating them into a one node when I realized like a search across them

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and that was my big evolution. But then I got introduced to loop when it came out. Then I got

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introduced to these new what we call the co-pilot pages and then there's notebooks and you just

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like your head starts to spin of, okay, one of the advantages and disadvantages of each of these

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because they're sure the place just like having, I'm still a huge sway page user and I can pair

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that to people they're like running websites internally with SharePoint. I say, hey,

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did you know they're sway for this external collaboration factor where you can give that one side

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information out and then we kind of dive into it. So breaking apart loop loop is one of my favorite

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tools hands down to use internally. I am a huge believer but then the adoption of it kind of fails

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because people don't understand it. Maybe there's too many connections and I will give it to people

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who were first adopters. It was not fantastic when it first came out. So we had some drop off there

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but it's really kind of come back around but then we come into limiting factors like you can't

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share loops externally. So what do I use there? And that's kind of what we've been struggling back

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and forth with these conversations. There is no one note to rule of mall anymore is what I'm trying

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to say. But is there something like I don't know governance or guidance we or company should set up

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for using its right or how can organization. Yeah. I don't know or people, people also don't

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know. Have I made their own note? How we can work better with all these options?

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I think we can work better with all of these options by understanding what our goals are.

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Like I'm going to use PowerPoint to give you something visual and share something

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externally and that's a very clear line. If I'm going to make a blog I'm going to be over inside

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a word but we get a little muddled because we've kind of created these collaborative note platforms

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and the way that I've been able to segment them is I still think of one note majority as my personal

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note taking tool. It's my external like application you might be working with could be a city in

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but this is my internal and where I really started to struggle with one note is one

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note is where I call notes go to die. The idea is go to die because there's nothing there that reminds

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me to go back to it. And that's where I've kind of graduated into having this hybrid scenario with loop.

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So I will create a loop module like a little ponet that is linked to a task list that will then go

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to my planner. I know we're going to a big circle here and I copy and paste that same component and

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put it into 10 different pages inside a one note so I can have a takeaway section. So I make all of my

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notes and columns and make them look pretty and then I'm able to do a takeaway. When we start to look

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at a collaborative front though I help run some internal groups for technology at my company.

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I will then make loop pages for the different learning that we're doing so then I can copy and

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paste that into an email. I have it pinned to the top of a group in a team that we work with

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and I'm able to have like a one source of truth. I think loop is a great place for one's

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more so true. Do you see loop replacing traditional and meeting notes in teams?

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I mean technically it already kind of has. We just haven't realized it's happened. So loop is

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of course sort of kind of back end by SharePoint in some senses of the word but it also whenever

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you create meeting notes and you create items inside of a reoccurring meeting it goes

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to a loop. Now we just don't even realize that we're using it and that was a beautiful consumption

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model because we used to have this notes inside of our meetings that kind of just went to what I call

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the ether like they just disappeared and you're like I can't find the chat anymore. I don't even know

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what Jim said that I needed to do in this project but loop whenever you have a meeting and you create

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meeting notes it'll automatically create a page and if you use the task section inside of there

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it'll create this mini little planner where you could add message people say that you've complete

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task and then if you aren't wanting to work inside of that planner I like moving my task from

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that planner that gets generated into my personal one so I can keep track of everything in a

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centralized location. So kind of like sprawling and bringing back in and sprawling and bringing back

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in and then just try to find the right solution that works. The loop becomes the new I don't know

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I think it's to be then engaged. Yammer or when you it's an all-in-you-share point what did you think?

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Well I think I was in a session here recently where someone said Yammer is not dead but it's

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not what we wanted to be like I loved don't get me wrong the idea of Yammer and having these collaborative

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zones. I think people are just so burnt out on notifications and then we get overwhelmed and we

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just don't even have time for our real job. One of my favorite statistics when it comes to focus

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it takes you 23 minutes after you've been disrupted from your task to become as efficient back into your

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task as you were before you got interrupted. That's saying you get interrupted twice on a day.

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You have lost an hour of time essentially getting productivity and that's where I kind of fell

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short with Yammer. Now loop is a little less invasive I like it because I can update one place

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and everything across the board that people view are going to be the same item and email is

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notorious for this. So when you are inside of an email and you have 15 updates on a chain

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you have a document over here in three PDFs that were attached to four other emails and you're not

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sure what the most current information is. Loop was great because I could go to that same email no

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matter of what the information was it's always been updated on that back end and you can do things

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like voting tables and it kind of bridges the gap I think between the legacy I live an email and the

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new age I live in teams how we prioritize that. It's definitely loop out is place and I think that

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we've kind of graduated to the co-pilot pages and it's it's going to be a lot coming together because we

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keep feeling like Microsoft makes these applications and they give us tools to bring everything together

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and this is where we're coming back around with the co-pilot pages again. So with these pages in

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notebooks you're able to and not one note notebooks just to help clarify that

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you can add in all of these content sources into a single location and then have it sort of

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ground a co-pilot response. So it's almost like an ad hoc agent in the loses sense that we're

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grounding the information and then able to ask questions from that and I'll give you the use case

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that I most recently used it for. So my company throws a big event during the year for

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partners and analysts and everyone external to come talk to us about some things.

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Well they give us all these roles they'll have a bunch of know before you go calls and I honestly got

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lost like I got added last minute to certain things. I was able to go into this page. I could add all

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of the calls that I was a no before you go calls all the planning calls all of the emails that were

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associated by saying hey look for emails that are associated with this and I was able to click through.

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Then I added in any of my group messages and loop components that were associated with this

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into one area. I then asked it to create me a summary then it came up with a one page summary

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and on the right hand side I asked it hey what do I need to know for my specific role during this

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event for next week and it gave me a complete list of where the information came from, what the most

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recent was and anyone that I needed to go talk to for clarification on something that wasn't quite

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clear. That would have taken me hours and this was maybe 20 minutes pulling in the right resources.

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I think when we have all this this places where we can store information I think we have overall

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a search but did co-pilot when your perspective become the new overall search for information?

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So I think it already is. I don't know about you but I can't find a file in my one drive to save my life

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but if I ask co-pilot to do it somehow it knows and it gets really specific so it was probably about

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six months ago. I was inside of the platform trying to find a PowerPoint from a presentation that I

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had done like seven months prior. I could not find it. I couldn't remember the name. I couldn't

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remember the session title and they were asking it so that they could redo it somewhere else.

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I went to co-pilot and asked it what presentation did I present on XYZ date and it pulled it up in

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like 10 seconds. It's incredible. There's never been a Windows search tool that has worked this well

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but it does kind of open the broader scope up with just asking co-pilot chat and that's really where

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the page is comes into a difference avenue because I can round it in a specific project and then maybe

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even invite people that are part of that same project and we could work in the same area. We can

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add in our resources associated here and it's more of a collaboration rather than a single search

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for yourself. I think co-pilot has it depends on metadata for the search. How can we have or

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how does it change from I think from yeah from these I don't know I have not saw the best structure

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all of them is laying on my desktop but yeah did we become or did must we in the future more

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safe with or working with with metadata?

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You mean like tagging it better ourselves? Yeah I'm branding I don't know with greatness this form when

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I don't know there's a lot of data that I can add. So that is something that I hear a lot especially

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when it comes to artificial intelligence and we have the concept of like rot data which is redundant

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obsolete and trivial so another fun acronym that kind of throw out there. I'm going to run a

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campaign eventually to get rid of acronyms going to be legal to use them but for now this is a

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turn that we use to say it's kind of muddying the waters of our AI it's old versions of help

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documentation that has a higher pull because someone wrote it better four years ago than they

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wrote it now but the now information is more correct and how do we wait that? That's definitely a

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governance question. How can we prevent from the I don't know sheet version 18 final final

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XML stuff what's your tip? My tip is to practice good hygiene when it comes to documents and I say

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that and it's one of those I don't always practice what I preach I completely admit it I just went

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through my one drive the other day and found a PowerPoint from 2021 with mostly irrelevant information

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and it's it becomes something that we have to create maybe expiration dates on documents my

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company's gotten a little better on our SharePoint health where if I have a document that's over two

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years old I'm getting emails stating hey does this still need to live here should you update it

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doesn't need to be deleted and it kind of makes you think about maybe I shouldn't create as much

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content because then I don't know update it all the time but it's a good reminder to not just

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hoard and after we kind of get people on the same page I think AI is going to help a lot

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Microsoft is releasing some things with co-pilot to devalue documentation that has not been

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accessed or changed and modified in a period of time they have some details that will be coming out

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on that but they talked about this a little bit on stage because that's been a big topic it's okay

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I know that this answers my question but is it still relevant?

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okay and do you have we have say or at the start co-pilot notebooks what exactly is co-pilot

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notebooks and where do it fit into the Microsoft ecosystem? That's a great question so whenever we start

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gathering information and we have this huge data sprawl because Jill decided she was going to create

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individual meetings instead of reoccurring meetings and then we got five or six management email

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change about the same topic notebooks are where we can go and add everything together and reference

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multiple items so that when we need to go ask questions about what is the most relevant in this

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scenario we're able to ground so basically notebooks are just grounding and then we create pages

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in these notebooks which are essentially loop components because we can add in like a mermaid

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chart we can add an additional task planner we can add in code and power points embedded YouTube

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videos all of these components can kind of sit inside of these pages and then we can delegate out

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access the one thing I like about the module aspect of loop is that you can have a loop inside of a

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loop inside of a loop and you can own the top level loop and then create these internal components

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to then share out with the necessary teams for that task then it all again feeds back to the same

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place and then you tap that loop component and you insert it inside of a notebook

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and we've grounded multiple sources together and I think everyone when we first started out inside

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of like the new Microsoft ecosystem we decided we were going to make a million chats and then they

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just kind of went on forever and then we could never find the chats that had the information this

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puts it into a place for us to write in a single area have we to rethink in the age of AI

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co-pilot and co-molage management one more time if knowledge management change through co-pilot AI

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or can we it stays the same what did you think I think it absolutely changes the conversation

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not just because we can ask at a hundred questions and get answers because we could do that with Google

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before but we also have to have all of these documents I've seen a hundred things come out from

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different people that were completely wrong and we are really living in the area in the era of

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subject matter experts being key and I think we sometimes forget that and think that a

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marketing person can write a technical documentation but that's just that's not true I don't think

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it'll ever be true because there is no way to vet something without that human component and I've

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seen some large large mcp chains of checking each other's AI and it still has an error of error and

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that's human nature too I don't think we can make something perfect because we can't be perfect

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ourselves I think we create a lot a lot of content work dogs and so on and they're yeah like I work

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I think yeah normally I can work with for the most tools with with sensitivity levels and

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pure view but I think by I'm company and they have thousands of workers I think the pure view

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gene will kill me or they can't handle this how we can yeah I think have an overview and governance

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the multi optional wealth of notes I think we need to reinvest in education and I don't mean just

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like let's go buy an O'Reilly subscription I mean our internal true sayers I have been through

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many companies and many iterations of okay we now have our google this .com era we have this AI era we

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have computers getting faster and being able to give us anything that we want at the tip of our

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fingers walking around with massive computers in our pocket but I think we need to have someone

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in an enablement role to ground what we need to learn to know and understand the aspects of the needs

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in the company to ground that information otherwise we're just kind of going off the handle I can

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spend an hour learning about Kubernetes and then I can spend another hour learning about AWS

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services and then spend 14 hours learning about the new things with Microsoft but where did that

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get me nowhere we got to have someone to help us ground that and that's where I think the enablement

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roles really play a huge part in the company then if it's talking about compliance and governance

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we definitely have to have some type of document owner department that keeps everyone honest so I guess

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this is a lot of middle management that we're talking about there what did you think

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could be especially in this this world and a state of AI readiness how can we achieve this and what

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will be AI readiness for you I feel like that's a trigger word right now so AI readiness

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I have this shirt that I absolutely love and it is a flow and it goes from left to right starting with

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a poop emoji like little poop emoji in your phone it's got the co-pilot symbol in the middle and then it

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outputs a rainbow poop emoji because if you're putting junk in you're gonna get junk out it's just gonna

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look really pretty and I think that comes back to a concept that we've seen over time if you ever

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get up on stage and you're just captivated by someone talking because it seems really good and

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like the truth you believe it you're walking out of that room as a new person until it starts to

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settle in like wait a second was that real what did he just say and I think AI is really good at that

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person up on stage making even the most wrecked topics sound like the truth and I want to think

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we're better at catching stuff like that but then I also know that there's sites out there like the

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onion and others that seem like satire some people in truth to others so that's kind of where I

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think that concept falls you know of what tips can you give companies organizations they will fight

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against a call of information sprawl what tips can you give them

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having a fight against applications bra well I like to have a board or initiate a board and you

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should have some type of stakeholders from a majority of your departments and make sure that your

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board is made up of not just technical people but non-technical type so that they can give some sort

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of truth or maybe reground you being like hey you can't use this acronym because I don't know

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what this acronym even means and I work in this department so helping someone to get an outside

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view of new software coming down the line any type of additions and then I like to run

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with a wider audience use cases so we had this new thing called promptathons

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and a promptathon is basically giving people access to copilot gpt and thropic something

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and saying hey I want you guys to spend a week and come up with the best prompts that save the

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most amount of time in your department for your use cases and feed that back we should really be

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doing this with any application that we want to adopt we should be getting the user perspective

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but so much of the time I feel like it just ends up being a check in the mail or money in the mail

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saying hey this one costs less over and go with this one even that doesn't fit our use case

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what did you think our organization yeah care enough about backup and retention for corrupt

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variation collaborative content like I don't know loop pages and copilot generated material

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all this so you're asking maybe what if someone that should take for advice yeah um I think we have

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uh we regenerate AI generates so much content I think actually we see it unlinked it uh and

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have we rethink backup and retention uh in organizations or can can we work like we work before

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yeah I think we live in an era of like I consider coming into SharePoint and OneDrive being the

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explosion of data but now we've like exponentially grown that and we have to roll it back at some point

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but I think we have a larger issue beyond retention right now we will have to think about retention in

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the future for sure but we need to think about vetting the authenticity of that in the accuracy and

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whether or not it's still relevance so again the relevancy of it maybe having some kind of

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self-management to an extent like if you have a document library or you have a thing have a bare

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minimal of two years I think anything older than two years especially if you're in a technology space

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needs to be addressed if you're working compliance almost every other hour you need to make sure that

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the regulation hasn't changed you're in the medical field some things may be static and you do have

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a retention to keep things for a period of time based off of like HIPAA in the states or GDPR in Europe

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for those regulations understand your regulations and then understand your relevancy time frame

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I think is the order of operations I always go with compliance first because compliance

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cost you money if you're not within regulations and then go to okay how do we clean this and make it

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right I see you Brian speak a lot of the topic workplace culture how do I to change the

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the human side of collaboration what did you think I think it changes the way that we communicate

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with each other but I think it's also a fantastic learning tool I was just in a presentation by

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someone a couple days ago even they were presenting on how to become a leader and we were doing

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some internal mentorship and they were talking about delegating how do you delegate and sometimes

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we feel kind of afraid that we're not giving someone enough information or we're not able to

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really delegate a task because we can't explain it but I kind of looped it back to ground it with

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the rest of the people saying hey if you were able to get AI to do what you want grounding it with

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the right information you have the skills to be a leader and leadership skills and having good

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prompting skills sort of go hand in hand when you start reading like the list side by side on the

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expectation setting the audience setting and the documentation background setting that's the same

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thing and I think that helps people kind of bridge the knowledge gap of how do we get there

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did you think AI drainage some some worries notes and so on can reduce yeah I think it's

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yeah we'll reduce thinking or creativity or have it there yeah I don't know if there are a change

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get that people a lot of people say through using through as wasch at GPT but the

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couple is it really the same we get stupid by using AI I don't think that's true and I think I have

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three points here the first point is I don't think AI is coming for anyone's job I think the guy

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using AI is coming for your job is the way I say it as for creativity I consider myself a highly

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creative person and sometimes I use it to talk back and forth with to get ideas to spark me forward

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it's impossible for me to pay someone to sit here all day long and talk back and forth to spark

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some generations because I will take like five or six responses from it compile those together

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and then go read something else to inspire my even title for some of my sessions or my blogs

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then it can help us kind of move a step beyond by getting concepts created so we have

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mildly created people out in the field that have these fantastic ideas for applications they have

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ideas for maybe workflows and images and bringing like concepts together but they didn't really

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have the words necessarily to express to someone that can actually make that item so if you can

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get a concept and say hey I want it in this style with these images together but I want to tweak

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it this way and then you're able to give it to someone that has a graphic design degree is say hey

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can you make this happen for me that's going to come out closer to what you're imagining in your

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brain the next time early how I've been able to use it in a really incredible way was back in the

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earlier set days of chat usp I went to this cycle of taking one of my long time presentations that

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I've been doing for four or five years I imported it and asked it to make me an outline I then tweaked

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the outline to add or remove things and reorder things to be a story had it give me a draft I took

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that draft and it's about cyber security so I got really boring when I did it so I put it back in

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after I finished writing this piece and asked the AI to change this as if I'm going war to war with

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cyber security and ransomware and it just took it to the next level of this content piece I created

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granted I did have to like copy edit and roll it back because it went a little hard in this section but

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it made that piece one of my most successful blog posts that year because I had someone to go back

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and forth with and I think it's just gives us tools to be better yeah you're an MEP in last month I think

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it was the MEP summit and in redmond so can you have Microsoft tell some trends in Microsoft through

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60 collaboration I don't know new jewels or or yeah so something else we can you you're allowed to

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tell us you know something is forbidden but it's the trend yeah I think there is a trend and I

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so one of the things I really like about being an MVP and getting to go to that summit is I'm an

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M365 MVP but I was able to go to the other groups including get hubs co-pilot which is coming down

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and I got to experience and watch people on stage be able to vibe code and I am in no way shape or

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form a developer I can barely write a power shell like script so that I can do something

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and this gave me the inspiration and the thought process of I could make a mock up proof of concept

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to hand over to the appropriate team and I think it really enables people to take their journeys to

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the next level of both understanding like you can go beyond your limitations and then being able to

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express and kind of like automate some of your daily task and that's really I think with the

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frontier project brought in was your daily task stuff. What will you do when Microsoft came and say

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hey can you please build us a solution for a problem that would problem they give you all the money

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you need and all the resources what product will you or what service will you build

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hmm I had all the money in the world I would make one note work right so I I'm a huge component of

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go where the people already are and I'm not sure Microsoft gets that right because they continue to

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build new applications new platforms they change the interfaces and I know it's not quite possible

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and again money's probably a factor but if you're giving me a blank check I would go where we're

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already putting information and merge it together to be more collaborative and I think they're

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sort of doing this but they're not using like one note as a base they are doing what's called co-work

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and this is something that's I hit a public preview or GA now parts of it are GA but what co-work does

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is once you click on it it's a lot like the co-pilot chat that you're used to working with

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but when you start a prompt it'll start automatically tailoring and looking for the appropriate

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agents to use for your prompt based off of what you're trying to do this will also use say like

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your internal agents and the frontier PowerPoint so if I went into co-work today it has an automatic

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like here try this button out and one of them is clean up my mailbox what it'll do is it'll go

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through your entire mailbox in your inbox and say hey you have 15 emails with this subject and

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this thing how do you want to handle this you need to follow up on these items do you want to do

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this now do you want us to make you a to-do list task to do this and then it kind of goes through a few more

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steps but co-work I think is the closest to what I envisioned co-pilot always being

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awesome um when you you you are working heavily and then and I think yeah community work um how

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what keeps you motivated to continue to invest in so much time and effort in in community building

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I would say I didn't know I would be here now I started off at my company like I said in the

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support organization and if you've ever worked support you're very isolated community you have

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your own community you have your own village in support and you guys like understand where you are

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in the trenches but when I started this role I introduced of what the true sense of having technical

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community is and I will say there are no better friends like I joke that I have more friends on the

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road than I have at home now because I just go to all of these conferences he don't eat alone

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at these conferences unless I want to like I have to fight to eat alone because it's just being a part

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of something and being a part of something bigger helps you be involved and helps you be motivated

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it gives me I see all these other people do incredible things and it makes me want to do more

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incredible things and not just in a competitive way but in a I want to be there with you on stage way

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I have your big loop van or it's or if we at the Arnold you will but is there one

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tip that you can give that that might that's the mouse people and don't know what they can do

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I last I learned I can in word I can double click the the brush and this is more for me

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life changing have you some some tips that people yeah not aware of

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inside a loop inside a loop or any tool where you say this is amazing productivity heck are so

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oh boy where am I now I like I've spent a lot of time in the notebooks recently

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because I can pull together everything that I'm working on in all of the hundred projects that I'm

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a part of and both internally and externally from my company I work in strategy it basically

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says I do everything so being able to have something keep current and know what the last thing that

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I talked about with xyz person the pages have helped me do that I do a mentor inside of my company

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and I made a page in a notebook just for this mentor and I did an intake with them asking what your

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goals are or what's you where you are in your career once the last time you did xyz what have you

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tried and what do you hope to gain and it helped me come up with action plans which

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not just helped me but how good by helping someone else yeah so my final question is microsoft

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the house I think it's like a running running get rename all all all their products every

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feeling every month but for listener there who feel overrun by the pace of microsoft innovation

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what advice would you give them that it is a lot that you're not alone that every time you turn

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on your even just office calm the interface seems to look different but provide feedback because

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they do listen I have the pleasure and honor of being in and the piece so they showed us some of the

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new interfaces that are coming in to the platform before they release like getting rid of the

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applications button you would not imagine the uproar that we made in that room when they showed us

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that like you are not removing that and making it six more clicks for our and people to know where

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to get what they need and I feedback that microsoft calm complain and not in a bad way just tell them

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that this makes your life harder because I'm sure there's like seven other people that have the

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same problem and if they get enough feedback on a post they take it under consideration and bring

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it to their PM board to say if they're going to make a change so they do they change his based off

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of user feedback speak up awesome yeah it's a cool tip it's well I hope not to feeling some some

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companies might give feedback but no one read this but this is awesome so yeah um then I will say

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thank you so much for staying here and given overview of all these cool tours and how do you work

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with it yeah I say thank you and I wish you a good day bye